The Jealous Curator: Danielle Krysa Talks About What It Takes to Stay Creative

[00:00:00] Dan: Thank you all for coming. Uh, I was gonna start this by saying hello to an old friend, public speaking. No matter how many times I do this, I’m like, why did I do this? Um, but it always goes well, and I, and I’m glad that I, that I did it and, and I’m so grateful to have you here. Danielle. Uh, before we get into it, I want to thank his lights are bright.

[00:00:26] Dan: Um, AMI and his team at Creative Pulse. I talked to Danielle, it might’ve been a month ago about this interview series I was doing, and she said, well, I’m gonna be in Vancouver on these two days. Maybe we’ll do it in person. And I’m like, well, I don’t know what that would look like. I’m thinking. And I reached out to AMI and said, it kind of fits in.

[00:00:46] Dan: Would you be interested? That was three weeks ago, and it’s pretty amazing that his team and Ami, all volunteers just said yes and pulled this off. Um, Danielle and I are the only ones, and we’re making lots of money tonight. [00:01:00] No, we’re not. Um, we are volunteering. That’s the 

[00:01:04] Danielle: reason I do things. Exactly. Hold hard 

[00:01:06] Dan: cash.

[00:01:06] Dan: Yeah. So she agreed. Um, so I want to thank all of you for, also for coming on a Monday night, uh, in Vancouver, um, when you could be doing anything else. Um, AMI Ami, I’m, I’m just so grateful that you started this community, uh, an opportunity to, to celebrate local creatives. Um. I know, uh, and Danielle and I will talk a bit about it, your, what your experience has been like.

[00:01:30] Dan: But in terms of Vancouver or Canada, like celebrating as individuals, I don’t think we’re great at that. And it seems like to do it well, you have to go to the States and I think it’s never been more important to kind of, uh, celebrate ourselves and be proud and take pride in the work we do, but also, um, to celebrate each other and, and pump the tires of our fellow creatives and just people in general.

[00:01:55] Dan: So, um, AMI thank you and, and the team for doing this. [00:02:00] Um, I’m gonna now, uh, say hello to Danielle. Hi. Hi Dan. Um, we worked together. We were just doing the math would’ve been about 20 years ago. ’cause you left 19 years ago. And back in, in those days, Danielle was about to become a creative director. Um, and so we’ll get into that.

[00:02:24] Dan: And then she left, went on a mat leave and I never saw her again until, uh, tonight. But the whole time in those 19 years, maybe she took a year off ’cause she left to have the baby. But then it started and, and you were even creating before then, JS Curator was a blog. And, uh, I guess I have, uh, an apology, uh, to make in that I, I’m sorry.

[00:02:47] Dan: Even if I did, I didn’t do it enough to reach out and just. Let you know how much you like inspired me, truly. And to just see you keep making things was just a reminder to me through most of, [00:03:00] of this time that I wanted to create things too. Um, so thank you for doing that. Um, so that’s my apology. Um, I’m also upset with you, it’s because my talk, um, um, my mother showed no interest, but she’s bought a ticket tonight and she has come, so she also didn’t live here.

[00:03:26] Dan: It’s, uh, so how this is gonna work, uh, I have like some prompts, so there’s some images and it’s just kind of Danielle’s path as a, as a creator. So we’ll go through them, we’ll see how many we get through, hopefully all of them, but if not, I want this to kind of flow organically. Um, so, uh, I know she’s already on stage, but if you could just applaud for Danielle.

[00:03:55] Dan: I’m not gonna break down everything you’ve done in this intro because I do it here. Okay. And, [00:04:00] uh, uh, thank you so much for coming. What, what were you doing in town? Where were you today? 

[00:04:06] Danielle: Um, I, my nephew goes to, um, a school here and the art department is amazing and so. The teacher followed me and when she realized that Jonah was my nephew, she was like, okay, hold on.

[00:04:22] Danielle: So now I’ve been there every semester for the last like year and a half. And so it’s their arts week this week. So I was with grade sevens today and I will be with grade fives all day tomorrow. And then I’m gonna do a workshop with all of the teachers Oh, cool. After school. So it’s gonna be a long day, but it’ll be good.

[00:04:39] Dan: Awesome. And then are you flying somewhere from then? 

[00:04:42] Danielle: I leave at three in the morning to go to California, um, for a road trip slash inspiration thing with my best friend who’s an artist in southern Oregon. And we have grand plans for a new podcast [00:05:00] and, uh, a whole bunch of different things, but we, I said we could do it over Zoom or we could go on a road trip and drink coffee and go to thrift shops and hang out together.

[00:05:09] Danielle: So that’s what I’m doing. 

[00:05:10] Dan: So your podcast will be doing that? Well, 

[00:05:12] Danielle: um, we’re planning the podcast over treats and coffee. Okay. That’s very important. Yes. 

[00:05:19] Dan: Okay. I’m gonna start. Uh, so that’s you. You can see you. Um, yeah. Uh, these are, you copied my outfit. I did whatever. My wife may be great. I I don’t wanna talk about it.

[00:05:35] Danielle: I’m an influencer. Yeah. But you see what I’m pointing at is my tiny, tiny Beyonce mike. Yeah. I was super excited about that. 

[00:05:45] Dan: This was a Ted Talk, right? 

[00:05:47] Danielle: Yeah, that was my TED Talk and I got a tiny, but I was more excited about the Beyonce mic than anything. No, it is more impressive. They made me give it back, but, 

[00:05:53] Dan: okay.

[00:05:54] Dan: Danielle, you’re gonna have to explain, uh, this one. 

[00:05:57] Danielle: Oh my God. [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Dan: It says Dirty Danielle, if you can’t read that. 

[00:06:03] Danielle: Um, I love dirty Dancing. I’ve seen it over a hundred times. Yeah. This was my going away card when I left Taxi, um, when I worked at Taxi in Toronto. 

[00:06:13] Dan: So Taxi is an ad agency and ad an ad agency 

[00:06:15] Danielle: in Toronto.

[00:06:16] Danielle: And uh, this was my Goodbye card. And so one of the talented designers swapped me in for Baby and I got to be dirty. Danielle and I still have this card ’cause I thought it was the best thing ever. That’s awesome. Ever. So that’s, look how happy I am. I know. Baby was never that happy. 

[00:06:34] Dan: Uh, what do you think of when you see that place?

[00:06:36] Dan: Oh, there’s little, yeah. Little trauma. PT So this is where we work together on the, the red umbrellas are, that was the top floor. I, I had the corner suite. It was just a cubicle that, I dunno, I was, and Danielle, you were close to the elevators, right? Just to get outta here. Yeah. So what comes to mind when you see that?

[00:06:59] Dan: Like how [00:07:00] do you feel? Is it, 

[00:07:02] Danielle: it’s being filmed? Um, I feel good. Oh, uh, I had a hard time there, honestly. Yeah. Um, I’d come from Toronto to Vancouver for this job, um, to become a creative director, which was sort of my goal for a long time. I’d worked in advertising for a long time as a designer and I wanted to be, um, in web design, and I wanted to be the creative director of a, of a web group.

[00:07:30] Danielle: And so that happened, but, you know, we were adjusting to a new city and trying to find somewhere to live and, um, yeah, I don’t know. It felt a bit bumpy and then I got into the groove and then got pregnant and left and decided to never return to advertising ever again. 

[00:07:50] Dan: Can you talk a bit about what you told me beforehand, what happened?

[00:07:54] Danielle: Yeah. So can I do the show of hands thing? [00:08:00] Yes. How many people here work in advertising or in marketing a lot? Um, so this was 19 years ago when I left. And, um, you know, my husband and I, he worked there too. He was the strategist. And, um, we’d worked, we met years ago. We worked together at IBM in Toronto. We worked at Taxi together, we were a team.

[00:08:21] Danielle: Um, and then tried to get pregnant. Got pregnant and I told them that I was gonna be taking a mat leave. And I found out through Dick Hadden, anybody know Dick, um, that the big, big boss who, I don’t even remember his name and I don’t even, I’m not sure where he is, if he’s still alive or not, but he had said, um, and then Dick told me, quote, um, goddamn women in the workplace don’t give them a management position ’cause they’ll just go and get knocked up.

[00:08:56] Danielle: And I said goodbye. 

[00:08:59] Dan: Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Danielle: And I thought, I don’t think I’m coming back. I didn’t say that out loud. I got my mat leave. Um, but I just thought, I don’t think like, how can I go back when that’s was the culture of the higher ups? It wasn’t the culture in this office, but I don’t know. It just, I didn’t feel good.

[00:09:18] Danielle: Yeah. 

[00:09:19] Dan: Well even today it’s something like 11% of all creative directors in marketing and advertising, only 11% are, are women. Um, yeah, exactly. Um, so, so back then, did you have the motivation to like, I’m going to write several books and do this blog. Like was it was creating for yourself? Like why did that start?

[00:09:43] Danielle: Oh, well, I’d gone to art school. Um, originally the plan was to become an artist and things went terribly, terribly wrong at art school. Um, and some of you know that story already. Wait 10? Yeah. 

[00:09:55] Dan: Let’s talk about jerks there. 

[00:09:58] Danielle: Ah, here we go. Here’s the [00:10:00] segue. Yeah. Yep. Um, so, um, I know some of you know this story, you’re just gonna hear it again though.

[00:10:07] Danielle: Um, but yeah, so I, I was the art kid growing up. That was, you know, people would pay me 25 cents to draw Garfield. So see me after the show, if you want one, um, inflation, it’s a dollar now. Um, so that was my identity. Everybody knew, knew me that way. And then, so when it was time to go to university, of course I went for marine biology, um, because it seemed crazy and irresponsible to go for art.

[00:10:35] Danielle: My dad was a PhD scientist and my mom was an artist. And, um, I don’t know, maybe subconsciously I saw my mom struggling. I don’t know. I, so I just decided I would be responsible and I would go for science. So I did. And then at the end of my first year, my dad, God, love him, said, um, what are you doing? He said, you’ve been an artist since you were born.

[00:10:56] Danielle: You, um, it’s just who you are. You need to [00:11:00] switch. And I said, well, what about like food and rent? And he said, you know what? It doesn’t matter. He said, do what you love and the money will come, and if it doesn’t, you won’t care because you’ll be happy. So I switched fine art, um, so excited. I could not wait for September, like the art kid was back.

[00:11:18] Danielle: Um, I got there and it all went terribly wrong for the next three years. Um, it was very conceptual. This was early nineties, so everybody was wearing like, it was grunge and like goth. And I am pretty sure on day one I was wearing an espree sweater set, um, with like flowers on it probably. And, but I, at the same time, I was so confident.

[00:11:44] Danielle: Like I, I totally believed in myself and I, I didn’t care that I didn’t, wasn’t wearing black and whatever, and I was just like, nah, I’m good. Um, but critique after critique, how many people have been through an art school critique? Thank you. My people. Yeah. Um, and [00:12:00] so I was telling the kids today, the grade sevens, we were talking about this and I said, you know, what I learned from those critiques was how to defend my work, which served me so well in pitches, um, in advertising when you’re pitching to a client, right?

[00:12:14] Danielle: Like I, I, it helped me when I was designing because I would be thinking about, okay, what could they fight against the font? Like I had a reason for my color choices. I had a reason for everything because in art school, if I just put something up in a crit. I would just get destroyed. So if I had thought through why I was doing the things, I had a better shot at fighting back.

[00:12:38] Danielle: Um, I also got really good at being composed while being torn apart so that I could still defend myself. I could still speak about what I wanted to speak about. So those, at the time, it felt like a nightmare, but in hindsight, really, really helped me in my career and speaking about my art even now. Um, [00:13:00] however, um, in my fourth year, I was a painting major.

[00:13:04] Danielle: We were given our own studios. I didn’t even paint there. I, I carried my canvases back and forth to the dorm because I just did not want people to be looking at me. I did not want, like, I just, I didn’t really have any friends. I just, I, I was just like, this is, I hated it. So I would just go back to the dorm, do my work there.

[00:13:23] Danielle: So six weeks before I graduated, um, I’d been working on this work sort of in a silo. And, um, I, I brought it for the Thursday critique as like, here’s what my grad show is. Hung it up on the wall. And this professor who was the head of the painting department, who never liked me the whole entire time I put the work up, he loved it.

[00:13:43] Danielle: He said, I’d found a new niche. Um, and he went on and on and on about how amazing it was. And I thought, oh my gosh, finally, like six weeks before graduating with a Bachelor of Fine Arts. I’ve got it. You know? And so he said the following week there would be an artist coming from New [00:14:00] York, and this was in Victoria, so this was a big deal.

[00:14:02] Danielle: And this was somebody we’d studied in art history, was coming to our classroom, and he said there was time for three 10 minute crit reviews. Um, who wanted to go? Well, nobody wanted to go. Um, but I had just found a new niche. So I, I volunteered. And so the following Thursday, I carried the same paintings across campus and I hadn’t touched them.

[00:14:26] Danielle: I, I went first, hung them up, and, uh, was immediately torn to shreds by the prof, who a week before I had said he had loved it. And all of my defense skills went out the window. I was so embarrassed. We were sitting in like a U shape just on garbage cans and stuff, and I was on this end of the u and then everybody was kind of there.

[00:14:52] Danielle: And then the visiting artist was on that end, and the prophet was kind of back here. And I, I couldn’t, [00:15:00] you know, when you get that lump in your throat and you know that if one word comes out, you’re just gonna be like, and I thought, oh hell no. I am not crying in front of these people. Like, no, I’ve made it this far.

[00:15:10] Danielle: I’m not gonna cry. Um, it was supposed to be 10 minutes, it went for 30 minutes. At one point, the, the visiting artist had just turned and was just watching me. He wasn’t even looking at the work. 

[00:15:21] Dan: So it was another man. It was too men. Yeah. 

[00:15:23] Danielle: And he was just watching me react. And it just went on and on and on, and it was horrible.

[00:15:28] Danielle: And then with about three minutes left in this 30 minute extravaganza, the painting prof, who was the head of the painting department said, you should never paint again. And then I graduated with a painting degree and, um, moved. My parents had just moved to Ontario, so I followed them and moved into their basement and cried there for about a year.

[00:15:54] Danielle: Um, my dad, again, God love him, um, said, let me be your patron. [00:16:00] Don’t get a summer job. He bought me, uh, canvases and paint. He set up the laundry room like a little studio, and he said, just paint. Get up every day like it’s your job. And just paint. Like he just, he just wanted me to get my groove back. Right.

[00:16:12] Danielle: And I tried, and every time I tried, all I could hear was, you should never paint again. Every, every brushstroke, every idea, every color, choice, everything. It’s just like you should never paint again. You should never paint again. And after a while, years, I, I, I quit making art for 15 years. And if I ever tried, I tried.

[00:16:34] Danielle: One time when I lived in Toronto, I was dating Greg, my now husband. Well, we didn’t live together. I had a tiny closet and I set up this little studio. He didn’t even know it was in there. I would just close the door. Mm-hmm. He thought it was a, like a closet. And I would make paintings at night after work, after working at taxi, I’d come home and make tiny little paintings.

[00:16:53] Danielle: And you know, when you’re working at like one in the morning and you’re like, I’m a fucking genius. [00:17:00] Like, no, like, talk about a new niche people. It’s happening at 1:00 AM and then you wake up in the morning and look at it and you’re like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, and so, um, not to make light of, of, um, eating disorders in any way, but I kind of, it was kind of felt like creative bulimia in that I would make the stuff and then I would throw it out.

[00:17:24] Danielle: And no one even knew it existed. My husband didn’t even know that I had done this. Uh, ’cause I, how dare I make art? Mm-hmm. I should never paint again. And I thought, if people find out that I’m making this mediocre, like, I don’t know. I had so much shame around it. And so it wasn’t really until Charlie was born, um, that it was watching him.

[00:17:48] Dan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:48] Danielle: Um, and I say this, I was saying this to the kids today. You know, you remember when we were little, I remember this clearly. I lived in Nova Scotia when I was in kindergarten and I was walking home from school and there was a feather [00:18:00] on the ground. And I was like, oh yes, I’m gonna take this home and put glitter on it and probably glue it to some, some construction paper.

[00:18:12] Danielle: And, um, my mom will put it on the fridge. And, you know, at no point are you thinking, I wonder if galleries are into glitter. Um, good enough. You know, like, I, I wonder if I’ll get into grad school with this feather. Like, you’re just like, that is a thing. Yeah. And there will be glue and it will be amazing.

[00:18:29] Danielle: And having Charlie and staying home with him and not, you know, dropping a daycare. And I was, who’s been with a 2-year-old all day every day, you know, it really tests you. But it, it, what was amazing was that he just was creative. We’re born that way. Mm-hmm. Right. He didn’t second guess anything. One day he was in his diaper and we were painting and, uh, he said, mommy, I paint me.

[00:18:53] Danielle: And I said, sure buddy. Thinking he was gonna do a painting of himself. 

[00:18:56] Attendee: Nope. Yeah. 

[00:18:58] Danielle: He painted [00:19:00] him and I was like, I don’t have a job. Knock yourself out like we’ve got all day. And so then I picked him up and I took him to the shower and I rinsed it all off. And then the next morning he said, mommy, I paint me again.

[00:19:09] Danielle: And I said, you bet buddy. Let’s go. And so this is what he did. And I just, I remember feeling jealous of a 2-year-old because I was like, why can’t I just let go? Like, why can’t I just paint me? Like, why can’t I just have fun again? And I had completely forgotten how. Mm-hmm. And it took the next sort of. 13 years after that to find that again.

[00:19:32] Dan: Well, because on top of you had outer critics, but like most people you have, this is Arlo. Arlo. Yeah. Who’s Arlo is your inner critic. Yes. You’ve named your inner critic Arlo. Yeah. Yeah. And so what relationship, how does that, so like you’ve had outer critics, we all have an inner critic. Um, what role does Arlo play in your life, or especially early, early on?

[00:19:52] Dan: I guess 

[00:19:53] Danielle: the thing was, I didn’t know. So after art school and I, all that second guessing, [00:20:00] I didn’t talk to anybody about it. And nobody at art school ever talked about blocks or inner critics or anything. So I thought I was literally the only person in the world that had that voice that said, you suck.

[00:20:11] Danielle: Mm-hmm. I did not know that every human in the world has that for whatever it is that they are wishing that they were good at. Um, I thought that creative blocks meant that you should quit. I thought it meant that you had no ideas. Mm-hmm. I didn’t realize that a creative block was just part of the process.

[00:20:27] Danielle: Yeah. Um, so for me, um, the, I had no word for it. I just thought I was not supposed to do it. And then, um, it wasn’t until I started the jealous curator really, that I started having these conversations. And that’s why events like this are so important. It’s the conversations. It’s realizing that none of us are alone, that we’re all in this together.

[00:20:49] Danielle: Um, but at art school, no one talked about it because nobody wanted to look like they didn’t know what they were doing. And so, you know, it just sort of, um. [00:21:00] Built up Steam. Arlo got some traction in there and I didn’t name him until Jealous curator was well established. This was just a few years ago. Uh, well, 2016.

[00:21:10] Danielle: And I was teaching a theater workshop, like a five day like Shakespeare festival thing with, with high school students from all around British Columbia. And so what? Oh no. Um, I thought somebody knew what it was. Shake Fest. Um, and so the, um, I was writing your inner critic as a big jerk, and I don’t like the term inner critic ’cause it already sounds negative.

[00:21:34] Danielle: Mm-hmm. And so I was trying to think of something else to call it. And so I asked these kids 14 to 17, like, what do you guys call that little voice? And sadly, they all knew exactly what I meant by that little voice. Um, and so they had swear words and mini me and, and then this one kid goes, well, I call mine Arlo.

[00:21:51] Danielle: Mm-hmm. I was like, I love that and I am stealing it. And so now part of my, whenever I do talks, I always tell people, and I’ll tell you guys before you [00:22:00] leave here tonight, to name your inner critic a name. Because when it’s just your inner critic and it’s just these floaty negative thoughts, you believe that it’s part of you, you believe it as a truth because you’re thinking it over and over.

[00:22:13] Danielle: But if it’s just Arlo or Bill, or you know, Allen. Janine Allen. Mine’s 

[00:22:18] Dan: Allen. 

[00:22:18] Danielle: There you go. Whoever they are. And it’s like, sometimes they’re people, you know, Arlo is nobody. I just stole it from a child. Mm-hmm. Um, but like one lady in a workshop I did, um, I guess her. Her mother-in-law is quite harsh. Her name is Ruth.

[00:22:31] Danielle: So she named her as Ruthless Ruth. Um, I tell little kids, you know, name it Mr. Fuzzy Bunny, whatever, like, just something that’s not threatening so that you can, when you’re working and you hear that voice, you can be like, it’s just Arlo. Mm-hmm. And you can be like, you know what? You need to sit down. ’cause I’m, I’m busy right now.

[00:22:48] Danielle: Mm-hmm. Um, so that’s where Arlo came from. Cool. And so Arlo and I are getting along a lot better. 

[00:22:53] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Danielle: He’s getting quieter, slightly supportive. I was telling the kids again today that a huge part of it is [00:23:00] translating. Mm-hmm. So when you hear your inner critic, sometimes it’s right. Very often what your inner critic is saying is right, but it’s delivered in such a rude way that it stops you in your tracks.

[00:23:12] Danielle: Right. But if you can be friends enough with it, Alan mm-hmm. Or Arlo. And when it says, like, so for me, I, I’m a collage artist, if it says like, oh my God, this is a hot mess, instead of being like, yeah, it’s a hot mess. And throwing it away and closing the closet door, I can say, thank you, Arlo, for your interpretation.

[00:23:31] Danielle: Mm-hmm. And then look at it and be like, it is kind of a mess. Mm-hmm. But what I love is this one corner, or I’m loving the palette, so I’m gonna start again. But I’m gonna go with the things that I love and I’m gonna remove the messiness because he was right. 

[00:23:46] Dan: That’s cool. It’s like treating it almost like feedback we would get back in the ad.

[00:23:49] Danielle: Yeah, totally. But you just have to, you have to translate it. ’cause mine is very mean. Yeah. And a lot of people’s is very mean. Yeah. And so you just, instead of taking it as word [00:24:00] and as truth, you take it as feedback from a, an asshole and then you translate what it’s actually saying into something that is gonna keep you moving forward.

[00:24:12] Danielle: Because in all of this stuff within inner critic, it’s you that needs to be in charge of this narrative, in charge of this conversation. Because for 15 years I let my inner critic be in charge. Yeah. And I just completely shut down. Yeah. 

[00:24:24] Dan: You can’t let your brain lead the process. No. You are in charge. If you do, then it takes you to dark places.

[00:24:29] Dan: Yeah. Um, so the jealous curator kind of begins in spite of all of this, you kind of reframed jealousy. I have this, this is a quote from you. Yeah. If you keep jealousy inside, it becomes tox toxic. But if you say it out loud in a positive way, you can transform it into admiration. And really, I mean, I love the name from the get go, the Jealous Curator before Instagram and Pinterest, when it was just a blog.

[00:24:53] Dan: I think we went to see David Saris. It was you, me, MJ, and Jill. Yeah. And I know you were already doing it. I was [00:25:00] instantly inspired that it wasn’t, um, just you creating, you had created a brand, which I’m sure was inspired from your background. Um. But it’s also like when you talk about your inner critic and keeping it to yourself, you feel like you’re the only one who has it.

[00:25:16] Dan: But even being jealous is admitting some of your insecurity. And when you get it out into the open is how you connect and grow. Um, what has your relationship been like with the name and having jealous in there? 

[00:25:30] Danielle: Well, it’s so funny. I’m so glad Greg’s not here tonight because this is his quote. He said this, I completely take credit for it everywhere I go.

[00:25:40] Danielle: Yeah. Um, but he actually said that to me. ’cause I was home with Charlie. I was so frustrated by wanting to be creative and not being creative. And this was before Instagram and stuff, but the internet existed. Yeah. So I was Googling artists in New York and whatever, and I was finding all these people that I loved, and I was truly jealous.

[00:25:59] Danielle: I [00:26:00] was jealous not only of their work, but that they were making. Mm-hmm. I wasn’t even making anything. Yeah. Some of them had studios. Can you imagine that? Mm-hmm. Like, I just, I was so, and I was angry. 

[00:26:11] Dan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:12] Danielle: And I made it angry about them, but I was really angry at me. Yeah. Um, and so Greg again, just, he’s so, he was so sweet and we were out, it was our first lunch out.

[00:26:22] Danielle: Charlie was two, and we finally went out for lunch together, alone. And we were talking about all this and he said, you know, if you keep, you’re so jealous of these people. And he’s like, it’s kind of eating you alive. And he said, you know, you need to flip. The script on this. This was end of 2008. So everyone and their dog had a blog at the end of 2008.

[00:26:41] Danielle: And he said, and he was a social media strategist by this point, or like a internet strategist. So he said, why don’t you start a blog and just start writing about the people that you love, but write it in a positive way and see how it goes. And I mean, nobody’s reading it. I had Google Analytics on there.

[00:26:58] Danielle: Well, Greg put it on there. I [00:27:00] don’t even know how to do that. And um, I would go and check it every day and there’d be six views. For the longest time, there was six views. It would be my dad twice, my husband twice, and me twice every day. And then one day I went on there and there was 43 views and 23 of them were from New York.

[00:27:18] Danielle: And I didn’t know anyone in New York at the time. And then Danielle, the creative director, kicked in and I was like, there will be a schedule. And like I got, you know, ’cause before I was just sort of writing whenever Charlie Napt, but it was really fast. It was like a month, it was like a month of writing before the jealousy started to lift.

[00:27:34] Danielle: Mm-hmm. I would find artists that I loved and instead of feeling like that kind of crushing, like, oh, everything’s been done already in every color better than I could ever do it, I’d be excited. ’cause I had tomorrow’s post. And the other thing that Greg pointed out, ’cause he, he has a degree in computer science, so he is a pattern finder.

[00:27:53] Danielle: In everything he does. And you know that thing where you, you find someone that you love and if you, if you don’t [00:28:00] have your own creative voice, this is in writing and music and art, anything, if you don’t have your own point of view, you’ll see something that you love and you’re like, oh my God, I’m gonna do that.

[00:28:08] Danielle: And then you see something else, oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go over there. Mm-hmm. And that’s what I was doing. And I was like, what? I, I felt like a crazy person. And I was like, what is even my point of view, like, I don’t have one. I’m just, this mom, you know, in sweatpants was spit up on me and like, what, what am I even trying to do here?

[00:28:27] Danielle: And he said, start this blog. Be committed to it. And then start to look for patterns. 

[00:28:34] Dan: Well, ’cause the thing is that I’ve found is like, I think for too long I was waiting for the right idea to come. Yeah. And then I would create, right? But like, you find yourself through creating, if you don’t know what to make, just make anything.

[00:28:45] Dan: Make anything, it seems like, 

[00:28:47] Danielle: yeah. What’s happening. And that’s what I found when I, when I, I’d written maybe for maybe two months, and then I went back and I scrolled through the whole thing. And I, I recommend this to anybody. If you’re feeling kind of lost, like with your creative [00:29:00] voice, go and start a Pinterest board, a private one so that you don’t feel like it’s out there.

[00:29:05] Danielle: Um, and just start collecting things you love. And it might be art, it might be shoes, it might be like a whole bunch of different things. Do it for a month and then go scroll through it. With a notepad and write down the things you start to see, like you’re gonna notice a color palette pop up right away.

[00:29:23] Danielle: You’re gonna notice that maybe you love negative space. You’re gonna start to notice, you know, mine. I started to realize everything had a bit of a wink to it. Everything was a little bit funny, all the art I was writing about, because in art school, I don’t know if I told you this the other day, that that same professor who told me to never paint again, my work was quite funny in art school, uh, which did not fly.

[00:29:47] Danielle: Um, and as you guys can tell, I’m hilarious. And so this professor had said to me, this is a direct quote. Look, it’s bad enough that you’re a woman. Um, but if you try and do [00:30:00] humor based work on top of that, you will never be taken seriously. So I stripped all the humor out of my work in 1995, and then here with my blog, I started to notice that all the artists I was writing about were funny.

[00:30:13] Danielle: And it made me realize it’s just like, what? Like I have to let myself back in. And, and that’s what setting up the Pinterest board, you start to see the things that you truly love and you can make your own little creative recipe really out of all those things that you love. And when you put them all together and just make something, there’s your creative voice.

[00:30:33] Danielle: You know, you start to make things that look uniquely like you because you’re only choosing the things that you really love. 

[00:30:40] Dan: I’m glad you didn’t take jealousy this way, Daniel. Oh no, I was thinking that could be the movie that you write. You know, just take it a whole other way. Thank God for blogs. Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:53] Dan: Okay, so these are like ear early signs. You were onto something, you, was that once Instagram started or [00:31:00] was it the blog? Like you’re like, Hey, I’m gonna keep doing this. Like, this could be something. 

[00:31:04] Danielle: Yeah, it was the blog. Like, um, my favorite thing about it was one, the jealousy started to go right away. I started to feel lighter and happier.

[00:31:14] Danielle: Um, I started to see the things I wanted to make. Um, but the biggest thing, ’cause back in the day with blogs, people commented, right? Mm-hmm. And I started getting comments and, um, my tagline at the time, so it was the Gels curator, and the tagline was, damn, I wish I thought of that. Because anytime I saw work and thought that that would be my poster for tomorrow, you know, that feeling where you’re just like, oh my God, it was so simple.

[00:31:39] Danielle: How did I not think of that? And so that was my tagline. So many people got it. And this was my first time. I mean, I was scared of artists, um, because art school had been so bad. And so suddenly there was these people who were like, me too. And I was like, really? And you know, I started to have like this tiny following, but they [00:32:00] were, they were mighty.

[00:32:01] Danielle: And probably some of them are here, I bet. Um, that have been here since the beginning, and they were my people. Mm-hmm. And I didn’t know I had people. I didn’t know there was other people who were like, yeah, I think, damn, I wish I thought of that all the time. And, and that was, I mean, that was what kept me going.

[00:32:17] Danielle: I didn’t care about anything else. I was just finding my people and finding my way. And it felt like personal therapy, which was the whole point. I never planned to have an audience. This was just for me to get back on track and then all of this, it just snowballed. Like, 

[00:32:32] Dan: I mean, it wasn’t even a thing building an audience really back then.

[00:32:35] Dan: No. I mean, when you started the blog, there was no Instagram or Pinterest, right? No. 

[00:32:39] Danielle: Pinterest hadn’t even been invented yet. Yeah. Look at 

[00:32:41] Dan: that logo. 

[00:32:43] Danielle: Yeah. That’s when 

[00:32:44] Dan: you probably started. Yeah. Um, I wanted to ask you a bit about, um, just how much, ’cause I know for me, I create on a, a way less, uh, sexy platform called LinkedIn.

[00:32:56] Dan: Um, but I don’t consume [00:33:00] much content and obviously you, you want to be creating over consuming. So for you on Instagram or in social media in general, like what is your relationship like with 

[00:33:09] Danielle: that? Um, I loved Instagram immediately just because it’s visual. Like everybody, like Twitter was around at the same time and I, I went on Twitter ’cause you’re supposed to, but I was just never there.

[00:33:19] Danielle: Um, and Instagram, I was like, Ooh, pretty pictures. Um, I, the way I, I use it right now as a way to find artists to write about. Um, so I’m on there a lot, but I don’t really engage. Like, I don’t, I. Comment a ton. I don’t, um, go down any rabbit hole like un unless they’re visual rabbit holes. But I don’t let myself get caught up in discussions that have gone off the rails.

[00:33:47] Danielle: I, um, and basically I go, I do one post a day on Instagram. I post it and then I’m out. 

[00:33:54] Dan: Do you like, engage with comments and stuff? Um, 

[00:33:57] Danielle: I, I don’t anymore. I, [00:34:00] I, I like them all. Mm-hmm. Um, and if something’s really hilarious, I’ll do a little ha ha ha. But I just find that otherwise my whole, that’s, I would never get off of Instagram.

[00:34:09] Danielle: Yeah. And I, and I don’t want to. And when I go to, I have a studio in my house now in my basement mm-hmm. Um, that’s bigger than the closet. And, um, I go down there and I don’t, um, I have my phone because sometimes I like to document what I’m doing, but I don’t, um, go on Instagram when I’m down there. 

[00:34:26] Dan: I mean, focus is a huge skill in itself.

[00:34:29] Dan: Yeah. Like you, I mean, they say like, it’s 95% of it. ’cause we’re just, especially now so easily distracted. 

[00:34:37] Danielle: Well, I, I, because I have so many things going on, we were talking before about, you know, how do I describe myself and it’s like artist and author, but also podcasts, but also this, but also this, but mother, you know, like all these things.

[00:34:48] Danielle: And so for a long time now, I’ve really had to compartmentalize my days. So if I’m work, I’m working on a new book right now, and I, I’ll have to decide that like Tuesday and Wednesday are book day. [00:35:00] And that’s all I’m doing. And I’m not gonna feel guilty that I’m not going to the studio because I had decided ahead of time that those are book days.

[00:35:08] Danielle: And when I’m in the studio, I’ve decided that that is studio time and I’m not gonna feel guilty that I’m not writing tomorrow’s post or I’m not working on the book, or I’m not baking cookies or whatever I think I’m supposed to be doing because I have blocked off that time. Um, and so I have to be off my phone for those things too.

[00:35:24] Danielle: ’cause otherwise there goes studio time. Oh, I know. I need 

[00:35:27] Dan: to get better at that. These are the jealous curator and Daniel Chrisa, her art, the two, uh, Instagram accounts that she runs. Um, I wanna talk about your first book and which is, was this one creative blog? Mm-hmm. And like, where did the writing side of things come from for you?

[00:35:46] Danielle: Oh, Dan. Um, yeah, so this was about a year and a half into the blog. I got asked to speak at a blogging conference. It was called Alt Summit. It’s still happening actually, but it was like all the [00:36:00] design, all the girl bloggers. And it was very exciting that I got to speak. And I was at this little pre, like this little wine and cheese thing, and an editor from Chronicle Books came up to me and I hadn’t shown my face yet.

[00:36:14] Danielle: Um, I still, my, my logo was basically my, on my face with a Polaroid picture over it. And she came up to me and said, are you the journal curator? And I was like, oh my God. Like that, that had never happened before. And I said, yeah. And she said, I’ve been following your blog. And I was like, oh. Cool. And she said, I’m an editor at Chronicle Books in San Francisco.

[00:36:33] Danielle: Um, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, what? 

[00:36:40] Dan: I do not. 

[00:36:41] Danielle: I yeah, I did not ever think of that. No. Um, but it’s always been on my bucket list, like dream. But I’m, I’m not trained as a writer. I’m not, you know, I, that’s not, that wasn’t the side of the office that I sat on. Right. And I sat on the art director side.

[00:36:57] Danielle: Um, and so she was like, okay, well I was coming to San [00:37:00] Francisco a few weeks later. She said, why don’t you bring a pitch? And I was like, excellent. And then I went home and googled what is a book pitch? Like what, how, what do I do? Yeah. And so, um, I went with two pitches. One was like, just kind of like a really pretty coffee table book.

[00:37:16] Danielle: And one was creative block. And the intro, actually the first couple sentences of this book say, you know, when people study psychology, it’s usually ’cause they have stuff they need to work out. 

[00:37:27] Dan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:28] Danielle: I’m writing a book about creative blocks ’cause I need to figure this out for me. And so this, I pitched, I said I wanna talk to 50 artists from around the world.

[00:37:37] Danielle: All different backgrounds. All different mediums. Because the difference between them and me is that when I get blocked, I quit. And they clearly don’t because they must get blocked ’cause they’re human. But they have shows and they have collectors and they have obligations. So it’s like, how the hell. Like, I just wanna know, I was like, I don’t care if anyone buys this book.

[00:37:57] Danielle: I just want these answers for me. [00:38:00] Um, and they bought the book, which I couldn’t believe. I remember just thinking like, you know what? It was an honor being nominated. They asked me to pitch, I pitched, and then the editor called and said, yep, the board bought it. You’re writing a book. And I was like, holy shit.

[00:38:17] Dan: Now what? Yeah. 

[00:38:18] Danielle: Um, and my mom’s not here, so I can tell this story. Mm-hmm. She’s not gonna watch the YouTube. Okay. But I was, so, so it came out, it did really well. Oprah’s people called, it was written about an Oprah magazine. Amazing. They flew me down to LA to do a bunch of stuff on oprah.com, like it was bonkers.

[00:38:38] Danielle: Um, I’d never been to New York before and I was gonna be doing an author event in New York, and it was my 40th birthday, and it was like all crazy. And I said to my mom, oh my God, I’m doing this author event in New York. And she’s like, and she’s my biggest fan. Biggest fan, so proud of me. She’s like, this is so exciting.

[00:38:54] Danielle: She’s like, who’s the author? And I was like, [00:39:00] um, me. And she’s like, well, no, you’re not the author. Yeah. She said, it’s a Q and a. Yeah. She said, you know, the reason this book is doing so well is because the answers that the artists gave are so good. Oh. 

[00:39:15] Dan: Yeah. You should never write again, kind of thing. You should 

[00:39:18] Danielle: never write again.

[00:39:19] Danielle: And I was telling the kids about this today, because sometimes the things that your inner critics say come from people who love you so much. And if she was here tonight, I would not have told that story. ’cause it would’ve broken her heart because she didn’t mean to put that seed in my head. But then when I wrote the next book, um, your Inner Critic is a big jerk that I actually wrote, wrote, um, I realized when I was traveling for that book that I would say that I would be like, oh, creative Block was my first book.

[00:39:45] Danielle: It’s q and a and this is this book I wrote. Mm-hmm. And then I, a couple lawyers after that, I was like, Nope, I can’t do it. I, I wrote that book, but, you know, something gets planted by somebody else and it’s, it’s, yeah. [00:40:00] So, and I, I’ve already, I’m already thinking I’m not trained as a writer. Mm-hmm. And then my mom is like, oh, by the way, you’re not trained as a writer and then you feel like this imposter who wrote a book.

[00:40:09] Danielle: And I’m like, but I do write the book. Yeah. It’s just so confusing, you know? And I’m from a family of academics. Like my dad has a PhD. My sister went to law school. Like, we go to school to learn things in our family. And I was never trained as a writer, so it took me until about a year ago to say author.

[00:40:26] Danielle: Yeah. I wrote a few books. Like, you even said you wrote a book, but you know, you, you’re not an author. It’s like, no, but yes you are. Yeah. Because that’s what you do technically. Yeah. Technically, yes you are. And so it’s a very, yeah. That’s my relationship with writing. Yeah. When I did get, um. This did so well that they said, would you like to write another one?

[00:40:44] Danielle: And I thought I would just do a follow up yet another q and a, right. And the editor said, no, I think you can write this yourself. I was so excited. Now I was a real author. I bought a fluffy turtleneck. My husband was [00:41:00] so, calls it the author sweater. ’cause I was like, I think authors probably have fluffy turtleneck, you know, and a hot pink moleskin notebook, because I was pretty sure they had that too.

[00:41:09] Danielle: And then I took my laptop down to, um, I live in the Okanagan and um, there’s this beautiful lakeside restaurant that my friend owns. And so she’s like, oh yeah, come. And so I just sat in a booth with looking out at like, and I opened up my laptop, open Microsoft Word or whatever it was, and there was the big white rectangle.

[00:41:28] Danielle: And then the cursor was like, fuck you. And I had a full, like, I cried panic attack. And I had, um, I had signed the contract, but I hadn’t been paid yet. I spent the first half hour of my brainstorming session trying to figure out how to get out of this deal. I was like, it’s fine. I’ll just tell them I can’t do it.

[00:41:49] Danielle: I’ll just rip up the contract. They haven’t paid me yet. Cool, cool. Um, getting hotter and hotter and my turtleneck. And, um, and so I decided to take my own advice and I embraced it and [00:42:00] I wrote my panic attack. And that ended up being, the intro of the book was the, I am sitting here. Freaking out. And my inner critic is saying, who do you think you are?

[00:42:11] Danielle: Like, there is no way you can write a book. I don’t care how many sweaters and notebooks you have, it ain’t happening. And um, I wrote a book, 

[00:42:20] Dan: so, so what about mom? Yes.

[00:42:26] Dan: So I’m kind, I’m kind of jumping ahead, but you’re working on another book and what is it? Is it still kind of the same or is it different? Like the process like, 

[00:42:34] Danielle: uh, no, I am still freaking out. Yeah. Yep. Okay. It’s due in August. Oh, 

[00:42:40] Dan: this is kind of, how much 

[00:42:40] Danielle: have I done 

[00:42:42] Dan: August? The, I don’t know, knows. This is what I found.

[00:42:45] Dan: Like when I’d committed to, like I am finishing this book, I realized what was stopping me at every was an, I don’t know, I don’t know how to do this. I don’t know anything about this. I’m not a writer. I don’t know how to write an intro. I don’t know. And I [00:43:00] realized, ’cause I wanted to quit every single time.

[00:43:02] Dan: And when you reference the artists who are making things, they come up against an, I don’t know, like everything you want is on the other side of an I don’t know. Right. I love that. And, and is that kind of, for you, it seems like you realize that early on and you just, maybe the, I don’t knows, get bigger, but you know what’s on the other side of them now, right?

[00:43:21] Danielle: Yeah. I feel like I’ve proven, I’ve proven enough things to myself that I’m like. Right. I’m pretty good at the whole fake it till you make it thing now. Like, um, I called myself the jealous curator and then I galleries messaged me and said, would you like to curate a show in Washington, DC? And I was like, of course.

[00:43:42] Danielle: And then I googled that too because I was like, I dunno how to a show. And, um, but my years as a creative director, being a creative director is kind of like curating. Mm-hmm. Um, there’s a lot of spreadsheets. There’s a lot of organizing, there’s a lot of emailing, there’s a lot of visual, making sure it all goes together.

[00:43:58] Danielle: I’m like, oh my gosh, I actually do know how to do [00:44:00] this. I was telling Dan before we started, I got to speak at Pixar. They invited me to come and speak to their creative team about creativity, like talk about feeling like an imposter, walking into Pixar. Thank God I was wearing black. ’cause I was sweating so much.

[00:44:15] Danielle: It was like I could feel it trickling down my sides. And I went and it was a theater like this and it was mainly men. And, um, they have a really cool theater where it’s all couches, like all like sort of love seats. And so they were all just sitting there just like this. And I, I mean, I was like, as I’m talking, I was like, what am I doing here?

[00:44:37] Danielle: Like, you know, I don’t know how to talk to Pixar. I don’t know. Like these people have like, you know, Oscars in their office, like, what am I doing? Um, and then afterwards, um, that was for Creative Block. I think I was there and I had little, my little book stands where they could buy the book and sign and I would sign it and I was like, this is.

[00:44:56] Danielle: So embarrassing. And I sat down [00:45:00] at my little table, they all lined up and they all came up and got it signed. Um, and I told the kid, I tell kids this story all the time. If you have kids, tell them this story. Um, so the first two guys that came up, and again, it was mainly men and most of my readers are women.

[00:45:16] Danielle: And, um, so these two guys came up and I said, you know, oh, great talk. And I said, so what do you do at Pixar? And the first guy said, um, oh, I was the head animator on up. Like, ha, cool. Um, and I was like, oh yeah. And then the next, the guy beside him was like, oh, you know, and I did all the, I can’t remember lighting on Finding Nemo or something.

[00:45:37] Danielle: I’m like, awesome. And then, but being a creative person in advertising for all those years, I know all of us had a side hustle. All of us had something we were interested in besides mm-hmm. MTS, um, and so, um, Manitoba Telecom. Um, and so, um, I said, you know, what [00:46:00] do you, what do you do on the side? So the up guy, he’d, you know, he’d said, oh yeah, I did, you know, blah, blah, blah for up.

[00:46:06] Danielle: I’m like, cool. So what do you do on the side? And he’s like, well, like I, I draw stuff, but like, and I was like, pardon? I couldn’t even hear him. He’s like, well, like I, I, I draw, but like I’ve lost my mojo and I’m really not sure how to get it back. And I was like. What? And so I say to the other guy, oh, what do you do on the side?

[00:46:23] Danielle: And he’s like, well, like, I’m a photographer, but like, I’m not trained. Like I just like to take pictures on the weekend. And I was like, holy shit, this is crazy. So there’s about 50 people in the line and I did it with everyone. What do you do at Pixar? Full volume. What do you do on the side? Well, I make these little kids and so I tell kids this story all the time because, you know, I, I took my son, I spoke there a couple of times.

[00:46:46] Danielle: I, I took my son when he was nine, he got to see the good dinosaur in their VIP theater before it was in theaters. And, um, he’s in university now and I think headed towards filmmaking and I wonder if it was [00:47:00] this experience. Um, and my friend that works there gave us this big tour. We were there for five hours.

[00:47:06] Danielle: It was a Saturday. There was nobody there. And, um, we got to see everything. And Charlie, um, is, he’s not an artist, but he’s a great writer. And so Vincent said, oh, you know, Charlie, do you make art? ’cause most kids do. And Charlie said, no, I don’t really like drawing. Um, I’m more of a writer. And Vincent said, oh, well, let me take you to the writing department.

[00:47:26] Danielle: And Charlie just looked at me like. What? So we went to the writing department and he showed him where they, where the writers and the art directors meet to decide what the, the, the characters that the writers have written about. The art directors are gonna decide what they’re gonna look like, and they worked together and whatever.

[00:47:42] Danielle: And we were, yeah, we were there for hours and we left and Charlie said, mommy, that was the best day of my life. Because it made him realize like, they’re just people. They’re just people and this is where they work. And, and me talking to them and realizing that they get stuck too, and that they have like [00:48:00] all these like in insecurities about their own work.

[00:48:04] Danielle: Every time something like that ha has happened to me, it’s just like, oh my gosh, we’re all just people. 

[00:48:09] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:48:09] Danielle: And if, if, if I can go to Pixar and sweat through my sweater and have these guys, a couple of them cried. I was just like, okay, well then when Ted Talks calls and say, Hey, you wanna stand up on this stage?

[00:48:19] Danielle: I’m thinking, hell no. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then I go and, and it seems terrifying, but then they give you a Beyonce, Mike. Yes. And then everything’s okay again. So, you know, I just keep showing. And then Dan, the Dan Elkin calls and says, will you come here and sit? And I was like, I’m too nervous. I can’t do it.

[00:48:39] Danielle: Don’t too nervous. 

[00:48:40] Dan: I was just thinking about going back to like what your art teacher said to you. Like, could you imagine if Charlie is in school and a teacher said you should never make films again. Like would, what would you do? 

[00:48:52] Danielle: I would throat punch that way. Yeah. I. Uh, the rage. I can’t even understand the rage.

[00:48:59] Danielle: Yeah, [00:49:00] 

[00:49:01] Dan: I’m sure. I’m sure I’m gonna, I’m gonna know. I don’t even know what’s next. So your second book we’ve kind of talked about like the, I don’t knows, just keep coming. And you then wasn’t a q and a, but I should 

[00:49:11] Danielle: say, I should say though, there was 15 years of the I don’t knows where I did nothing. 

[00:49:15] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:49:16] Danielle: I don’t know how to do this.

[00:49:16] Danielle: I don’t know how to do that. And I was just like, I will do nothing 

[00:49:19] Dan: but jealous curators. Nothing is that? No. Well that was when Jealous curator started. Didn’t yourself? Yeah. 

[00:49:24] Danielle: Like I, yeah, I did nothing for, for 15 years and then started The Jealous curator. 

[00:49:28] Dan: I want to flip through. This was you in 2013. Uh, I’ll read it Daniel, if you big big cup of coffee and a bunch of editing on book number two, how am I lucky enough to spend my day doing this Crazy, like, do you still feel that way today?

[00:49:42] Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. I pinch myself all the time. 

[00:49:45] Dan: So this is your inner critic is a big jerk. I didn’t realize. Maybe subconsciously, but a line I use a lot when I sign my books, um, a few of them I’ve, uh, I say Your inner critic is a dingdong. That’s kind of what I say. And I don’t know, maybe I owe you another apology.

[00:49:59] Dan: I probably, sure I do. [00:50:00] I’ll 

[00:50:00] Danielle: send you an invoice. Um, well this was supposed to be, um, your inner critic as an asshole. Oh really? And then, and it was right before the book was we were supposed to be done and Barnes and Noble said they wouldn’t carry it. Um, which you want Barns and Noble to carry it. And so, um.

[00:50:16] Danielle: They, my editor said, would you mind changing it to something like Big Jerk? And I was like, Ugh. Like that kind of loses the anger, like the oom. And I was like, all right, fine. And so Martha Rich is one of my favorite artists in the world, and she was illustrating it, and I was like, we had to submit five possible covers.

[00:50:32] Danielle: I’m like, let’s put an ass on one. Let’s put a donkey on it. So then at least it’s in there subliminally, like for us. And, uh, this was the cover they picked and we were like, 

[00:50:42] Dan: that’s awesome. Do you know what’s funny though? When I think about, like, this was probably five years ago. I was in the airport about to get on a plane and there was about six books that were had the, like, I know f this F and the title, like, people are buying them now.

[00:50:58] Dan: I know. And so the 

[00:50:58] Danielle: new book I [00:51:00] pitched, uh, had the word bullshit in it because this, this book is all about all the bullshit artists have to face and just like calling it out and being like, here’s how to dodge it when it’s on your path, because it will be like dealing with galleries. Um, bullshit. Like there’s a one chapter that’s, um, mothers can’t be successful artists.

[00:51:19] Danielle: It’s just bullshit. Mm-hmm. And so bull. Right. And so bullshit should be in the title. They said no, they said it’s very five years ago. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:35] Danielle: So I was setting the trend with asshole, got that scrapped and then there was Yeah, the, the, you know Yeah. Like give a whatever. Yeah. All the books, how to Not Give a Fuck book. Yeah, yeah. Those are all bestsellers. Then I’m like, okay. And they’re like, yeah, that’s kind of passe to put a swear word in. But you can put a bull on the 

[00:51:52] Dan: cover.

[00:51:52] Danielle: I could put a bull, I’ll call Martha. 

[00:51:54] Dan: Um, so this is a writer that we worked with. She was on your team and she said, congrats on the second book. Damn. [00:52:00] I better get to work on my first one. And here’s her book. Yeah. And this is also like, you know, I don’t wanna give you too much credit, but, but like writing my book, and Dave Deha who sat behind, he wrote a book.

[00:52:13] Dan: Yeah. And I don’t know how many books and I, and a lot of it, I think you can take credit, like being so close to someone who is constantly creating. I’m sure I know. Well, and 

[00:52:22] Danielle: it also puts it in perspective, like, like the Pixar thing. It’s like, I’m just a person. Yeah. I’m a person that you guys know. And it’s like, well, God, if Danielle can do it, you know, like, but it is true, like when you see people close to you doing stuff, it kind of makes you realize that the, I don’t knows, aren’t as scary because it’s like, well if they figured it out, surely I can figure it out.

[00:52:40] Dan: But it’s a weird thing, you know, I think this is maybe why, ’cause even in my path, I’ve not done, you know, an eighth of what you’ve done. But I noticed that the first people I’ve heard from on this journey were like in other countries, you know? And, and I think maybe some of it is, uh, when you see someone do something that you’re close [00:53:00] to and you’re proud of them.

[00:53:02] Dan: Maybe that feeling of, but I’m not making anything, is so strong that it doesn’t allow you to say, Hey, I’m so proud of you. And I think it wasn’t until I started creating that I could do something like this and be like, it’s amazing what you’re doing, um, to just celebrate you. And I think maybe that’s probably why, you know, didn’t hear from, I don’t know if you hear from people, if it was the same for you, it’s like other countries other, yeah, yeah.

[00:53:25] Dan: No, 

[00:53:26] Danielle: I don’t, it’s funny, I don’t hear from any of my advertising people. Wow. Maybe it’s ’cause I just deuced out bye and just never came back. I was like, see you in a year. And then I never came back. I don’t know. But Mary Jo Dion and I have stayed in touch. Does anybody know Mary Jo? She’s a writer. Um, oh, I love your house.

[00:53:48] Danielle: Um, she um, she has anybody done the Artist’s Way? Right? Have you done all of it? So many people have not done the whole thing. [00:54:00] So when Charlie was two and before the gels curator, I was feeling really lost. And my hairdresser kept saying, there’s this book called The Artist Way, you Should Do it. And I didn’t.

[00:54:09] Danielle: And I didn’t. And I’d come back six weeks later and she’d be like, did you buy it? And I’m like, no. And then this went on for months and months. And so I finally bought it. And one of the things, and I, I pretended I spent $5,000 to do it like a course. ’cause you’re supposed to do a chapter a week for 12 weeks and it’s hard.

[00:54:25] Danielle: There’s a lot of stuff. And Greg was so supportive and he was just like, no, I’ve got Charlie, like. Just pretend you’re doing your home like that. You paid money and you’re doing it. So I did it. And one of the things you’re supposed to do is write a letter to somebody who you are jealous of. And so I picked Mary Jo, and I didn’t know her very well at the time.

[00:54:46] Danielle: Like we’d worked together like, well, like we had, but we weren’t friends. Friends. And, um, but Mary Jo, she’s a force to be reckoned with. She always has a million things. Like she was, she, she had started a small dog rescue and she did a [00:55:00] fundraiser, and she did, ended up doing it at the Playboy mansion somehow.

[00:55:03] Danielle: Yeah, I know. Like how, yeah. You know, and like, just all these things, just like, somehow Mary Jo was doing this stuff and it was, I don’t know. So I was like, at home with a baby and I was like, I, I don’t know who this woman is. Um, but she was a contemporary and I had worked with her and I was like, okay. And what I was jealous of was she just seemed to always be creating and always like nothing seemed to stop her.

[00:55:23] Danielle: Like somehow she made all this stuff happen. So we went for coffee on Grandpa Island and I, I read her my letter and I said, I’m very jealous of you. And she was in the middle of drinking a latte and she did a, a spit tape. Spit tape, yeah. And she had foam on her nose and she laughed and she’s like, what are you talking about?

[00:55:41] Danielle: She’s like, I’m so jealous of you. I think I just started Jealous curator. And she was like, and she, she wanted a baby. Like, and she, you know, she’s like, you’re still being creative, but you’re this mom and you’re this and you. And so we had this little love fest where it turns out she was jealous of me for a million things.

[00:55:55] Danielle: I was jealous of her for a million things. She didn’t think, she said, I feel [00:56:00] like I’ve got a hundred pots on simmer, but nothing’s boiling. So she didn’t think she was amazing. And so we had, and it, it was the first time that I ever out loud said to someone, 

[00:56:10] Dan: mm-hmm. 

[00:56:11] Danielle: I’m jealous of you. Mm-hmm. And this is why.

[00:56:14] Danielle: And she’s now one of my best friends. Mm-hmm. Because we actually shared, and, and you know, that that was what the blog gave me. I gave, gave me this community of people that I could talk to who got it. Who, um, I’m just, one of my current art series collages that I’m doing is called Undefeated, and they’re these giant trophies and I have it.

[00:56:34] Danielle: Oh, do you have them? Yeah. And that’s the whole point is to celebrate. Mm-hmm. Not only ourselves, but other people and lift everyone up. Mm-hmm. Awesome. 

[00:56:42] Dan: Um, I, I went back to show your book instead of ELs. Oh, this is, she’s not even here. This is something I read recently. Like every action is an act of service, like the things we’re creating.

[00:56:53] Dan: So even if there’s not a great response, you know, we want to create these things. We want people to like it, we want more than six people to [00:57:00] like our blog posts. But I mean, I, I read this recently related to even diet, like the choices you make. Like, you can lead in that way. Whether I fail all the time with like the cookies and the sweetss for my kids.

[00:57:13] Dan: Um, but when I think about the choices I make or doing things, it’s not just for me. It’s like, even if it sucks, and I know because not that your stuff sucked, it didn’t, but I know that when someone is in your vicinity and is creating how much it helps. So just like confront the, I don’t knows, do the hard thing because even if you’re not a crazy success off the bat, you are like making a difference.

[00:57:37] Dan: Um, collage another book. I’m gonna just, this a big important art book now with women. So,

[00:57:51] Dan: so we talked about your experience in like the corporate world, um, and then as an artist in school again, it [00:58:00] came up. And then again, as an artist that you can’t create funny work. Um, imagine on Instagram. Like what is it like in the art world specifically now? Are you finding that because your work is quirky?

[00:58:14] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Go. What, what do what’s coming to mind? 

[00:58:16] Danielle: Yeah. I’m just like waiting for the reaction from all the female artists in the audience who are mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh. No, I’m getting, I get great response now. Yeah. Um, I, but I do think, like, thanks to, so, I mean, there’s lots of bad things about social media, but the good thing is community.

[00:58:31] Danielle: Um, and so I have found my community and so they’re very supportive of the things I’m doing. I’m also finally really proud of what I’m doing, and I, I put it out there with confidence where I didn’t use to. Um, but the art world, just like everything else is so skewed for, um, the prices that women can sell their art at.

[00:58:51] Danielle: The, the exposure we get in really great galleries like is getting a lot better. But when I was in art school, um, which is where this kind of [00:59:00] came from, um, I minored in art history and so, um, and I loved art history so much. And, um, I was 19 and I was gonna be an artist when I grew up. And, um, so, you know, I was in a theater like this, looking at slides of work, and I remember like maybe a month in, I was like, 

[00:59:18] Dan: uh, 

[00:59:19] Danielle: like we hadn’t even heard about Frida Kahlo yet.

[00:59:21] Danielle: Like it was all men up until that point. So I put up my little hand and my prof was amazing, but I said, you know, where, where are the women? Like, were there no women? You know? And he said, of course, you know, there were thousands and thousands of women making amazing work, but quote, they weren’t considered worthy enough to document by the historians of the time.

[00:59:44] Danielle: I remember thinking, oh, fuck that. Mm-hmm. And I remember thinking, I’m gonna document them, but I, I didn’t, I remember clearly having that thought, but I was like, I don’t know how, like, but I, I was mad and I was like, well, I’m gonna do it [01:00:00] cut to like 30 years later. But, um, and so when I, every time I have a book and I go on a tour, I, I take Greg’s advice and I look for patterns because there’s always a pattern.

[01:00:11] Danielle: Even tonight when I chat with people after it, there will be a pattern in the thing, in the, in the topics that come up. It’s the weirdest thing. And so when I was traveling for big, uh, big jerk, so many people kept telling me stories about like, women not getting their, their, you know, um, the spotlight on them.

[01:00:32] Danielle: And so I thought, I wanna write a big important, like, I own so many big important art books. I have a pop art book that’s about that thick. There were so many cool women making pop art. It’s that thick. There’s not one woman in the whole book. Mm-hmm. It’s like, how is that possible? And that wasn’t that long ago, you know?

[01:00:48] Danielle: And so I thought, I’m gonna write a big important art book, but only with women. So I’d already had three successful books. The Oprah thing had happened, like it was all going great. I pitched [01:01:00] this to seven, um, publishing houses. Six of them said no, because they said no one would read a book about women.

[01:01:09] Danielle: That was in 2017. Crazy. That was right before all the Me Too stuff happened. Um, but it only takes one publisher to say yes. So one publisher, they’re the ones publishing the new book too, running Press. They said yes. And they gave me full support. They let me do whatever I wanted. This was the working title.

[01:01:27] Danielle: And then I was like, it’s actually, can we just make this the title? And they were like, hell yeah, we can. Um, and this was really great because a whole bunch, and not that I don’t think my book was the reason, but a whole bunch of books about women artists came out in the years following, I think because this, this is my biggest success so far, like moneywise sales wise.

[01:01:49] Danielle: And so I think the publisher started to be like, oh, people will buy books about women. Mm-hmm. And so they’ve bought a lot more titles and so there’s a lot more books, which, um, you know, I I always say [01:02:00] like, I feel like especially this book, I’m proud of all of them. And I, and I, you know, get, you know, finding out that somebody started making art again.

[01:02:08] Danielle: ’cause they read one of my books. There’s my success. Mm-hmm. I don’t need anything else. But this is so huge to me that that 19-year-old little kid said, I’m gonna do this. Not really having any thought of how or when or why. And then I was like, in the hindsight I was like, holy 

[01:02:25] Dan: shit, I did it. Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:27] Danielle: You know?

[01:02:27] Danielle: And I’m, I could not be more proud of that book. 

[01:02:30] Dan: That’s awesome. It’s funny, like the theme ’cause. You were an art director, but you were on the website Yeah. Websites back then, which was really new. Like, so that was kind of Yeah, we were, we were 

[01:02:39] Danielle: very much less than in the, uh, in the world of Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:02:43] Danielle: It’s 

[01:02:43] Dan: like, we’ll do web banners and it was even the other side where I sat, which like, oh, the big idea. And then they, they’ll we’ll 

[01:02:51] Danielle: just give them whatever. Yeah. But 

[01:02:52] Dan: even a blog, even though you said everyone in the world had a blog, like, you don’t think so that really true. No, I know that’s, that’s like back then.

[01:02:59] Dan: But when I [01:03:00] think of people that we knew, like, I don’t think that wa that was true. No, that’s, yeah. And then Instagram, like, and then, I don’t know, I think the podcast is coming up soon. Oh, look at these shoes you make. You just make this. Oh yeah. I put my 

[01:03:13] Danielle: art in some bands. 

[01:03:15] Dan: Um, oh, let’s talk kids’ books. Like, ’cause I think everyone, lots of people will think throughout their lives about writing a book of some kind.

[01:03:25] Dan: Um, and then you’ve done that. But I think all of us too will have thoughts, especially if we have kids of writing a kid’s book. Um, that’s something you always wanted to do. And obviously kids books, like from an illustration standpoint and visually mm-hmm. Your combination of your ability to write and tell stories.

[01:03:42] Dan: Um, so what was it like, uh, let’s just look at a couple of the, 

[01:03:46] Danielle: this was like a dream come true. This, I wrote my first children’s book when I was seven under a bush in our front yard. Mm-hmm. Um, I had a merch plan. There was gonna be, uh, lunchboxes and stuffies and stickers. I had [01:04:00] the whole thing planned out, literally.

[01:04:01] Danielle: And then it only took me 40 years to actually write the real one. Um, so I’d had the idea for how to spot an artist. Um, and again, this came from a pattern. So when I was traveling with, um, a big important art book, the pattern that came up in chatting, and it was crazy. I traveled all over the place for that book.

[01:04:19] Danielle: And I’m not joking when I say at least a thousand people, I wish I’d kept track. I’m sure it was over a thousand people on that tour told me when they were waiting to get their book signed, that when they were either six, seven, or eight, someone told them they couldn’t be an artist when they grew up, a teacher or a parent or, or, or something.

[01:04:37] Danielle: It was something in that time. And, and now I’m meeting them when they’re 40, 50, 60, and they’re just, they’re looking for a jumpstart. They’re looking to try and figure out how to start making again after all those years. Um, and that just breaks my heart because I didn’t have that, I didn’t, I didn’t get squashed till university.

[01:04:55] Danielle: My parents were so supportive, right? And so I thought, okay, well, I could write another kid’s [01:05:00] book, I mean another grownup book, or I could scooch around to the front and talk to these. People when they are six, seven, or eight and plant a different seed in their head that, you know, that says if anyone tells you you can’t be an artist, you absolutely can.

[01:05:14] Danielle: Mm-hmm. There were no swears in the titles of these books. Um, and so, and so, um, I went to my, my editor at Chronicle, who I was with for the first couple of books. She left and started her own literary agency. And so she said, will you be my client? So she’s now my agent. And so I went to her and I said, I wanna do a kid’s book.

[01:05:37] Danielle: And she said, no. She said, they are very competitive. It’s a different kind of writing. Um, you’re not known for that. Um, I know you have a kid, but, and I’m like, no, no, no, no. That’s not why I wanna do it because of this. And she was like, yeah, no. Um, then my dad died and um, I told my dad about this book idea and of course being my biggest cheerleader, he thought it was [01:06:00] brilliant and award winning and I should do it.

[01:06:02] Danielle: Um, and then he died very suddenly and so I was kind of lost. ’cause as you can tell from all the stories I’ve told my dad was sort of my biggest cheerleader. And, um, I just remember thinking it was Christmas time and I was just like, you know what? I’m just gonna write this book. Like Kate said, no, but I’m just gonna approach it like, it’s like, it’s like an art project.

[01:06:25] Danielle: So I just wrote the story and um, I illustrated it and I basically made it like a little word doc and um. Then I emailed her in January. I emailed her. I’m like, I’m done. She was like, what? Um, I didn’t write a pitch or anything, I just did the book and I sent it to her and she, her daughters were five and three at the time, and she read it to them and she said that she cried at the end of it.

[01:06:50] Danielle: And the girls were like, I get, I don’t know if this is everyone’s dream, it was certainly my dream, the rainbow carpet and all the little kids at my feet, I wore sparkly, um, sequined shoes [01:07:00] ’cause I figured they’d like that. And I got to hold my book and read to these kids and it was amazing. It was everything like that I wanted.

[01:07:10] Danielle: Um, the first time I read at Powell’s, Charlie was six. And um, he was in the very back, just enter, like, he just, Greg grabbed him a bunch of books so that he wouldn’t fidget, you know? And so it is q and a and they said, um, okay, we have time for one more question. And Charlie put up his hand and I said, yes, the young man in the back.

[01:07:31] Danielle: And he said, um, mommy, can I buy this Minecraft book?

[01:07:38] Danielle: Yes. That’s awesome. Yes you can. Uh, and, and then he came with me when I got to read to the kids, and he’s six foot six now. Uh, he was 17 or something at the time, and so he couldn’t even sit on the little chair. So he was standing in the back and afterwards he gave me a big hug and told me how proud he was of meeting him.

[01:07:54] Danielle: Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s pretty neat to have done all of this, you know, with him like. Growing up through [01:08:00] all of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:08:01] Dan: Now you get to be his biggest cheerleader. And I sure 

[01:08:03] Danielle: am. Yep. Um, let’s talk 

[01:08:06] Dan: briefly about, I mean, I, we could, I can’t talk briefly, as you can see. Sorry. Well, I only have one slide on this, but you did over 250 episodes.

[01:08:16] Dan: Um, but I have it, here’s a quote, um, from Ron Swanson. He’s the department of, from the Department of Parks and Rec. He said never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing. But you are doing a lot of things. Yeah. Like how do you A lot of asses. Yeah. There’s a lot of asses. How, how, how do you do? Because I know for me, like the first thing writing a book, I couldn’t possibly think about anything else.

[01:08:39] Dan: Like I couldn’t do anything else. And now I’m working on something else and I feel like I need to compartmentalize kind of the way you do, or these days for this and these days for that. But like to think, in the beginning it was just a blog, and then it’s, now it’s, and it was, and it’s Instagram. And you had a podcast and you’re writing books and you’re doing talks and you’re doing workshops.

[01:08:57] Dan: I have a daily subset. Subset. That’s ridiculous. [01:09:00] And then you stopped the podcast recently? 

[01:09:02] Danielle: I stopped the pod. I stopped the podcast a couple of years ago, um, because I had 250 episodes and I thought that’s quite a few. Yeah. Also, I have major phone phobia. Like, I, I don’t like to order pizza. Hmm. Really?

[01:09:18] Danielle: Because I, what if what? I don’t know what the guy’s gonna say. Um, so my husband forces me to it. The, the deal is I have to call for pizza and he’ll go pick it up. Yeah. And I’m like, I’ll go pick it up. And he’s like, no, you have to call. Um, so the podcast was good for the first like 20 episodes because it was people I knew, so I could, I could, yeah.

[01:09:36] Danielle: I’m such a control freak that I could predict that it was gonna go pretty good. Right. I knew interested in what you are doing in your work. And, and she said, how would you feel about working together? Like, she hates the word mentor, but that’s what it was. And I was like, what? And this was at the very beginning of Covid and she’s in New York and I’m in the Okanagan and we started meeting every two weeks on Zoom and she mentored me.

[01:09:58] Danielle: Like, [01:10:00] so, I mean, that was a huge thing that came outta the podcast. Um, I started making the work I’m making now because of the podcast. ’cause I had Wayne White on, do you guys know who Wayne White is? Remember PeeWee’s Playhouse? Mm-hmm. So Wayne did all the puppets and a lot of the voices, he did the sets, like just amazing artists.

[01:10:17] Danielle: And now he does paintings and sculptures and his paintings are hilarious. They’re, they’re, um, like, uh, thrift shop paintings. It’s like cheap landscapes. But then he paints words into them like beautifully done. But they’re all swears and they’re ridiculous. He’s from Chattanooga plays the banjo, um, but he lives in LA now.

[01:10:36] Danielle: And when he started, and I, I obviously, I’m slightly obsessed with him and his story, so I knew all of this and I knew that when he started showing in LA. People, the gallerists were like, yeah, but it’s not real art. ’cause it’s funny. Mm-hmm. You know, and he, and I knew this was sort of part of his story. And so I had said on the podcast, and also side note, I had a garbage can beside [01:11:00] me when I called him.

[01:11:00] Danielle: ’cause I thought I was going to throw up from the nervousness because I could not believe I was talking to Wayne White. And that like, this is the pho, this is the phon phobia that was legit real, but he was so kind. Mm-hmm. And so I said, you know, and every second word out of his mouth is a swear. And I said, so when these galleries told you that, you know, fine art can’t be funny, I’m clearly like, you know, trying to investigate my issues.

[01:11:22] Danielle: And I said, you know, when you, when they said it couldn’t be funny, what did you think? He goes, well, I just said, fuck it. Mm-hmm. And it was like a lightning bullet moment. I was like, and this had been 20 years since I graduated from art school. And I was like, oh my God. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, fuck it. Mm-hmm. And I was like, how have I allowed a teacher from 20 years ago to have control over the kind of work I’m making, the way that I’m making it when Wayne can just go fuck it to the entire LA gallery system.

[01:11:59] Danielle: Mm-hmm. You know? [01:12:00] And I was just like, oh my God. So the, it was right before the Christmas holidays and so I decided I’m not gonna be all the advice I give everybody else. Don’t be precious. Don’t buy the perfect canvas. Don’t. I just ripped up a whole bunch of little squares of paper, like 20 of them.

[01:12:14] Danielle: Didn’t even cut them with an exacto blade so that they couldn’t possibly be perfect. Put them all out. Went and bought paint. ’cause I didn’t have, I hadn’t had paint for 20 years. Went and bought paint, um, and just started playing. Just started making one brush stroke on every page. And I’m a collage artist.

[01:12:30] Danielle: Mm-hmm. So I have bowls of tiny people. And so I put the tiny people on the swoosh. Not every tiny person belongs on every swoosh. So I would wait until a, a story popped into my mind. I put it down and if a story popped into my mind, like I got glued down and the titles were hilarious. They were like a sentence or two long, and I was in my studio for probably eight or nine hours.

[01:12:55] Danielle: I didn’t eat, you know, when you get in that zone, my husband was like, and I’m [01:13:00] laughing in there by myself, like, and he kind of like opened the door. He is like, everything okay. You know? And I was, I was 42 and I was like, I have not had fun making art since I was 17 years old. And I am having a blast. And it was because of Wayne just saying, fuck it.

[01:13:17] Danielle: Like, what? Just do what you want. And that was the beginning. And that was all because of the podcast. The reason I stopped the podcast was after mentoring with peta, she, you know, Charlie was in school full-time now and he was busy with his sports and his friends and stuff. And she said, can you gimme five hours a day in the studio?

[01:13:38] Danielle: Well, I’ve never done five hours of them. Maybe do a Saturday afternoon and then wonder why I’m not getting anywhere. Yeah. Um, so PETA said, can you gimme five hours a day? And I was like, oh my gosh, I actually can. But that meant cutting the podcast because the podcast took me about 24 hours a week, which is a big chunk of your week.

[01:13:55] Danielle: Mm-hmm. And I thought, okay, something needs to give. Like, I can’t [01:14:00] do all of this. I’m gonna crack. So if I’m really gonna, if I’m really gonna do the art thing, something has to go and I figure 250 episodes I can, I can let that go. Ted, you did it. Yeah. 

[01:14:11] Dan: Um, Ted talking. So you’ve done two. Yeah. Um, you wore black both times.

[01:14:17] Dan: I did. You wore my outfit. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. Um, so the first one, the theme was your inner critic is a big jerk. And the second one, most recently it was in Nashville and it was seven ways to Cut Creativity out of your life. Um, 

[01:14:32] Danielle: completely. Yeah. Cut creativity. 

[01:14:35] Dan: What? Just going from the first to the second, like how terrifying was the first one.

[01:14:39] Dan: And then take us from that one to the second. Uh, were you more prepared or? Probably the first one wasn’t 

[01:14:45] Danielle: too bad. Mary Jo was there too and she was talking right before me. Yeah. So that helped. Although she was so good and I was like, wow, that’s not great to follow. Um, which was perfect ’cause my talk was about inner critic, so I was like, perfect.

[01:14:58] Danielle: Um, Nashville [01:15:00] was so scary. Um, look. Look at that theater. Yeah. It was at the Tennessee, um, symphony Hall. Um, they told me the day before, they said, um, the, or the, the directors of it were like, we think your talk is so fun and uplifting, so we’ve put you first. And so I’m in the green room with all the other people.

[01:15:22] Danielle: We’re doing the sound checks and stuff. It’s terrifying already. And all the other people were like, I’m so glad I’m not you. I was like, great. Um, and Ted, you’re not allowed speaker notes. Um, and it has to be 18 minutes and you have to just have it memorized. And when you go out there, there’s a, um, a clock that only you can see.

[01:15:42] Danielle: The audience can’t see it, and it, it says 18 minutes. And as soon as you start talking, it starts counting backwards. Mm-hmm. It’s like 1759. And you’re like, aha. Oh my God. And so you start talking really fast and you know, your slides it. So it was terrifying, but I had it so [01:16:00] memorized that I’m, I’m just doing it.

[01:16:03] Danielle: And I had this moment in my head where I’m like, oh my God, I’m doing it. And then I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. Focus. Focus. Because I just, I knew that it was just gonna go blank and I’d be like, and then I knew if I lost my train of thought. 

[01:16:18] Dan: Yeah. I never, 

[01:16:20] Danielle: but I did it. I nailed it. 

[01:16:22] Dan: Awesome. 

[01:16:22] Danielle: I, I walked off the stage and my girlfriend that had come with me, she’d been telling me up until then, ’cause I’ve been practicing at the airport, practicing at over lunch practice.

[01:16:31] Danielle: She’s like, you’ve got this. Like, this is amazing. You’re ready, you’re ready. I came back off after, she’s like, oh my God, I can’t believe you didn’t fuck up. I thought you said I had this. She’s like, oh no, I didn’t. I thought you were gonna screw up for sure. I was like, oh, awesome. 

[01:16:47] Dan: So how did you feel after 

[01:16:49] Danielle: we went day drinking?

[01:16:50] Danielle: Oh yeah. I felt great. It was just, I’d been practicing it what was supposed to be in 2020. It was supposed to be March, 2020, so of course it got shut [01:17:00] down and they’re like, we’ll do it in May because none of us realize. So I was still practicing it until May and then they’re like, okay, the world is now shut down.

[01:17:08] Danielle: So in 22 they brought it back. I changed it a bit, but not really. So I’d had this thing in my head for two years and so just being able to say it and nail it and be done was so great. Wow. And the poor guy that went right after me, I was already gone day drinking, so I didn’t know this happened, but, um, he walked out.

[01:17:28] Danielle: He started, he was about two minutes in and he went completely blank. And he was like, just a second. And he went off stage, took a breath, came out and started again. Because once you. Once you lose your spot, he couldn’t figure out he, he needed to do it in that 18 minute thing he’d memorized. So we came back out and then he nailed it.

[01:17:48] Danielle: Wow. But it’s, 

[01:17:50] Dan: it can happen is 

[01:17:50] Danielle: what you’re saying. Yeah, it can happen. Just because 

[01:17:53] Dan: I 

[01:17:53] Danielle: wish you didn’t tell me that. I’m sorry. Yeah, don’t memorize anything. Speaker notes are a really good thing. You know, I have 

[01:17:58] Dan: some notes here. I don’t normally do [01:18:00] it. And you’re the one who has to talk most the time. Um, well talk about thinking big, like obviously when this started you weren’t thinking big, but I know I reached out to you.

[01:18:10] Dan: I never ended up going through a publisher, but you had said, go to the us, reach out to someone like an agent in the us. Um, obviously they do tend to think bigger there and it’s a bigger audience, but I guess when was it in your career as a jealous curator and Daniel Krisa where you started thinking bigger globally?

[01:18:30] Dan: Um, like I said, you had to learn that. I don’t know. I don’t 

[01:18:33] Danielle: know if I ever did. I think opportunities came up and I said yes to them. Um, I still, I’m getting a lot better now at being like, I’ve got this idea and I think I can make it happen and I’m gonna try, but okay. Let’s just get really honest, even though this is being filmed.

[01:18:51] Danielle: Um, cut. Yep. Snip this part. Yeah, no. Um, yeah, lately I’ve sort of had [01:19:00] this thing of I’m super grateful for everything and, and, but I feel like I’m on this precipice that I can’t. Tip over. Like, I feel like I’ve gotten as high as I can and I want more, and I cannot get there. And I don’t know, I don’t, I don’t know.

[01:19:21] Danielle: I don’t know how to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, does anybody follow Ashley Longshore? Yes. Yeah, right. She’s a good friend of mine. She’s this artist. She’s now in New York. She’s a force to be reckoned with. She was on late night with Seth Meyers, the first visual artist to be on since Andy Warhol to be on a late night talk show.

[01:19:38] Danielle: She was a, a, a guest on Project Runway. Like she’s just, I don’t know how she does it. Like she just does all these crazy things. And, um, I wrote about her. I was one of the first people to write about her. And, and really it helped get her going. Mm. I mean, she all is a force, so she was gonna be going, whether I wrote about her or not, but it did help.

[01:19:58] Danielle: And then I’ve just watched her [01:20:00] fly by me, you know, and, and so that’s where I am right now. Or, and I don’t wanna sound not great about manifestation. We’re like, we’ll say something. We’re like, manifestation. Manifestation. Because I think that is it. Like, I think when you say it out loud, even if you aren’t quite sure what it is, if you say it out loud, um, the universe kind of hears it.

[01:20:18] Danielle: Mm-hmm. And then kind of weird things can happen, you know? So like I had. I had this, um, sometimes people will do this at the beginning of a year, that a hundred list where you write a hundred things that you want and it can be, you know, a donut. Um, write a children’s book like it can, you know. And so I did that and then I put it away for two years.

[01:20:36] Danielle: And when I went back and looked, I’d done like 50 of them. Yeah. And I didn’t even really remember they were on that list. But I think there’s something about the manifestation of like, thinking about it, writing it down. One of the things on that list that hasn’t happened, hold a baby orangutan. I still want that to happen.

[01:20:53] Danielle: Bring him out. Bring him out. No, I know. I, I wish, uh, could you [01:21:00] that 

[01:21:01] Dan: I wish I knew we had more than three weeks. I would’ve done it 

[01:21:05] Danielle: if we had four weeks to play on this. 

[01:21:07] Dan: For sure. Yeah. Um, I just wanna talk a little bit about thinking different, ’cause I know, uh, and not in, in a creative sense, it’s actually the opposite.

[01:21:14] Dan: ’cause I think what stops a lot of creative people is I can come up with ideas, I can create things. But like, when it comes to discipline structure, s like you said, you have to like also think like a business. If you’re creating content daily. Like, I remember you, you were kind of that way before even like, in a professional way.

[01:21:32] Dan: Like you were very organized and on. And then has that played a big role in this? Oh yeah. I 

[01:21:36] Danielle: am. I’m a list maker. There’s spreadsheets, there’s organization, and especially like for writing the book, like I, I have like, you know. I consider the chapters buckets. And so then I have like a little spreadsheet where I can throw random thoughts I have into that bucket so that when it’s time to write, I have the thing, you know?

[01:21:53] Danielle: And so I, and for all my collage scraps, I have like, you know, an envelope of flowers, an envelope of [01:22:00] royal family mm-hmm. And en whatever. So that I can kind of feel, I mean, I think that’s also motherhood. Like, if you’re going to get anything done, you need to be organized or nothing is ever happening. Um, so I think between being a creative director and then being an at-home mom mm-hmm.

[01:22:14] Danielle: I honed those skills. 

[01:22:17] Dan: I need to work on those skills. Uh, I want to talk a bit about how, uh, actually I, this I chat gpt chat, GPT, just to see what they said, legacy and impact through her books, blog and podcasts. Danielle Krisa has helped countless artists and creatives navigate their own journeys. That said, her work continues to inspire those dealing with creative blocks to ting making her a key figure in the conversation around art, self-doubt and resilience.

[01:22:43] Dan: Pretty good. Right? No kidding. Chat. GPT. But like you touched on briefly, your friend who you writing about her helped her. Like, I imagine you’ve done that for a lot of people. Like what, [01:23:00] what do you know, like feedback have you got or pe how many submissions do you get? 

[01:23:05] Danielle: A, a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I mean that’s why I like events like this.

[01:23:10] Danielle: Like I like talking to people after because you know, you find out that. Maybe somebody hadn’t also hadn’t made art for 15 years. Mm-hmm. And then they heard me talk, or they read my book and they realized they weren’t alone either. And then now they’re, they’re artists or they just had a show, or like they’ve done the thing that they wanted to do.

[01:23:27] Danielle: And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve cried. They’ve cried. Like, and that’s the, the drug that keeps me going. You know, 

[01:23:36] Dan: your whole, like the whole jealous curator has been celebrating other people. 

[01:23:42] Danielle: Yeah. And I think because art school was so bad and I felt so alone, and so to have a community and to feel not alone and to feel like we can lift each other up instead of crushing each other down.

[01:23:53] Danielle: Mm-hmm. I mean, I was crushed for three years. What was the point of that? 

[01:23:56] Dan: Well, it’s like you had said earlier about people who study [01:24:00] psychology need it most. It’s like you, you kind of give what you need most often, right? Yeah. How you look cover good. That’s Peter’s, that’s, Peter doesn’t know what a podcast is, but she doesn’t Yeah.

[01:24:12] Dan: That’s, um, uh, this is something I stole from that you shared a long time ago. Yeah. Self-deprecation. It’s not humility, it’s humiliation. That stood out to me. ’cause I think I can be quite self-deprecating. Canadian. Yeah, exactly. But I love that. ’cause I think you can go too far with it. Yeah. Where, and and did you have a relationship with self-deprecation?

[01:24:34] Dan: You shared that? I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. 

[01:24:36] Danielle: No, I just, that really struck a nerve and, um. One of the little tips, um, in my talks that I give and that I told the kids today is one of the best ways around this and around your inner critic is just two words. Thank you. Mm-hmm. So when someone says, Dan, I read your book, I loved it.

[01:24:55] Danielle: Mm-hmm. What do you say? Mm-hmm. Thank you. Mm-hmm. And then you stop talking. [01:25:00] Because what we tend to do, I, I joke in my talks that I’ve got everything. When I’m in the states, I always say, I’ve got everything against me because I’m an artist. I’m a woman, I’m a mother, and I’m Canadian. So I basically just apologize for existing.

[01:25:14] Danielle: Um, so when somebody says, I love your book, I love your this, I love your that, you say thank you, and then you stop talking because your inner critic is like, you know, if someone says, oh, I love your collage, my instinct is to say, oh, thanks. But I didn’t really have the paper that I wanted. And also, like, I don’t love this corner, and I was gonna frame it, but like, ugh.

[01:25:33] Danielle: And your inner critic Arlo was just like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is exactly what Arlo wants. And, but if you can just, and it is, you’re humiliating yourself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like why? Yeah. 

[01:25:44] Dan: Just own it. 

[01:25:45] Danielle: And, and somebody just said something nice about something that you are proud of, so say thank you, and then shut up.

[01:25:52] Danielle: And, and I always joke that it also makes you much more fun to talk to at a party than being a Debbie Downer. Yeah. Yes, totally. 

[01:25:58] Dan: Yeah. Uh, [01:26:00] shadow careers. Have you heard of what a shadow Steven Pressfield, you know. So he’s, he’s a great writer, but sometimes when we’re terrified of embracing our true calling, we’ll pursue a shadow calling instead.

[01:26:11] Dan: That shadow career is a metaphor for our real career. The one we really want it shape is similar. Maybe an art director. When you wanna be an artist, it’s contours feel. Tantalizingly the same, but a shadow career entails no real risk. If we fail at a shadow career, the consequences are meaningless to us.

[01:26:27] Dan: Which is I think for me too, being like a copywriter. And then for you to see your evolution to go from, well, I’m still not an artist, I’m a jealous curator. But then where we end up is now you are, you are creating. Um, would you think the shadow career for you? Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:26:43] Danielle: I was on a plane coming back from somewhere as the jealous curator.

[01:26:46] Danielle: Mm-hmm. Flying around, telling other people to get past your stuff and make work and blah. And then I was on this plane and I was like, oh my God, what a hypocrite. Because I wasn’t making my art and showing my art and all these things. And I [01:27:00] remember thinking, oh, exactly what I did with design as a place to hide out from art I was doing with a jealous curator.

[01:27:08] Danielle: It was this safe, cozy place where I could tell other people how to get past all this stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, but I wasn’t doing it. And that was right around the same time I did that interview with, with Wayne White. And I was like, okay, time to come out of the shadows. Yeah. Like I gotta walk the walk. 

[01:27:25] Dan: Awesome.

[01:27:25] Dan: Yeah. Here’s another one. Like that’s, you can just face that way. I’ll, I’ll have the sore neck tomorrow. It’s often said that your specific combination of DNA, your life experiences from childhood up until now is one of a kind. And that the person you are is somewhere in the order of one in 400 trillion.

[01:27:45] Dan: Thus the odds are long that there has ever been another one of you before. Nor will there ever be another you anytime soon. Regardless of whether the math is accurate, the idea is suc, seductive. You are one of a kind and I feel like you are almost like peeling [01:28:00] back the layers as you get to creating for yourself and you realize that you’re quirky nature or the things you like, that there is an audience for you.

[01:28:08] Dan: The fact that you’re a female and you know, even, even the shitty things that were said to you on top of your inner critic, it is amazing to me this like you are one in 400 trillion if you can just find whatever it is to start creating for yourself. And like obviously that’s not the end. Like you, it wasn’t like, yeah, go ahead.

[01:28:27] Dan: Yeah, 

[01:28:27] Danielle: that’s what peta I, I said I was having a frustrating moment about my art and you know, whatever and getting places and everything. And I said to peta, ’cause I’m 50 and almost 52, she’s 71 I think. And I said, oh, like when am I gonna figure this out? And she goes, well ho, hopefully never. And I was like, what?

[01:28:48] Danielle: And she goes, how boring would it be? She’s like, imagine if you figured it out tomorrow, then whatcha gonna do for the next 50 years. Mm-hmm. And. That was one of the most, li she just said that to me. She called me [01:29:00] on my birthday. That was the most, like, I was just like, oh, doesn’t that feel nice? Mm-hmm.

[01:29:04] Danielle: Because like, yeah, you don’t wanna figure it out tomorrow. Um, and what I was saying earlier about starting the Pinterest board and like finding your visual voice or finding whatever, you know, your thing. ’cause you really are the only you. Mm-hmm. And you know, I wouldn’t be the jealous curator if that teacher hadn’t said that thing.

[01:29:21] Danielle: Mm-hmm. So, you know, like all of the, all of your experiences are just enriching, enriching, enriching. And yeah. I hope she’s right. I hope I’m on my deathbed going, IM got another idea. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Um, 

[01:29:35] Dan: yeah. This is kind of answered. What is the relationship between Daniel Krisa and the Jealous Curator?

[01:29:40] Dan: Kind of, 

[01:29:40] Danielle: we’ve become one now. Oh yeah. But anybody who’s heard me talk before, I’ve kept them very separate. Um, I always, well, they’re still a little separate in that when I’m making my work, I will stop and look at it and think, would the gels curator write about this? Mm-hmm. And if she wouldn’t, I keep going and I keep pushing.[01:30:00] 

[01:30:00] Danielle: Mm. And if she would write about it, then I know I’m on the right track. So. Awesome. It’s a weird, that’s separation, but we’re, I’m trying to make us one. That’s awesome. 

[01:30:09] Dan: Um, then Danielle Krisa painted again. Uh, and so I just have some of, some of your work. I know this isn’t the best way to display it, but just for people to get a, a sense of, of Danielle’s sensibilities, uh, and collage work.

[01:30:30] Dan: Arlo. Yeah. That was a whole show 

[01:30:32] Danielle: called Shit Arlo Says, and it was all my inner critic. Uh, 

[01:30:35] Dan: so I know I was a, a student or a, a kid who named Arlo. But Arlo is a, a boy’s name. Yeah. Like my inner critic is, is a male. Um, like for you, I guess you didn’t, you just stole the kids’ idea and said, I’m gonna run with No, but it’s 

[01:30:49] Danielle: always been a male in my head, I think because of that teacher.

[01:30:53] Dan: Oh, right. Okay. That makes sense. Fun. Slinger, um, branding one. Is it? These are cute. [01:31:00] Oh, those aren’t mine. What? They’re not cute at all. No, I, I, that’s what wrote about this is you bring me chips and dip and then your latest series Undefeated. I actually wanna read ’cause I think it’s like a nice kind of full circle moment on what we are doing from like insecurity to being proud of yourself and also what this community is about and celebrating.

[01:31:22] Dan: This is an opportunity to celebrate you and celebrate creativity. Um, this is, Danielle wrote about this series. So many of us have been told, don’t be showy, don’t be loud, don’t be the center of attention and never ever expect to win the grand prize, the gold medal first place. Well, I think we should do all of those things.

[01:31:40] Dan: We all deserve the sash, the crown, the ribbon, the badges, the big trophy for the obstacles we faced, how hard we’ve worked, and if nothing else, to celebrate being proud of who we are. Which I just love. And I think especially like, it doesn’t come naturally to us as Canadians. I think even to celebrate each other, you know, we all kind of move up as a [01:32:00] group and down.

[01:32:00] Dan: And then if you look down south right now, they are a country that celebrates their greatness based on individuals. Um, and I think we need to do, uh, more of that. Um, and I love that you’re doing that and that you’ve reached this point in your career where you can celebrate yourself. And this is just a, a taste.

[01:32:18] Dan: This stuff you really have to see on, on her website, et cetera. But this just gives you a taste of, of what, what she’s done. And you can see her art in these places. That’s Instagram and that’s her website. And then I wrote The Jealous Curator is indeed, uh, jealous of, of Daniel Yoker. And, uh, so am um, ended here.

[01:32:49] Dan: Thank you. Um, now we do have time for some q and a. I think I’m gonna lose my microphone. Is that right? Yeah. So Chris, 

[01:32:56] Attendee: she’s gonna, you need your microphone in a moment, some water. He’s coming here [01:33:00] and while he, so the way we’re gonna look, this thing, um, we are gonna take a few questions and while he’s, uh, walking out, I’m gonna start off because I get that privilege.

[01:33:11] Attendee: Um, one of the things that we do and when you guys buy tickets is just, Hey, what’s, what’s on your mind? What, what, what are you thinking about as you. Um, was this feeling of, um, paralysis. Like we have such opportunity around social media and reaching out to people, um, and gaining community as you have done, but it is also so paralyzing, you know, and what if your work has, it requires depth and time, it doesn’t lend itself to the pace of social media.

[01:33:44] Attendee: That was something that came up in a few different ways, um, with people here. So I’d love, love for you, uh, answer that while people raise their hands and we’re wearing mics around. 

[01:33:53] Danielle: Um, I think we put way too much power [01:34:00] into social media. I think if it doesn’t work for you, I mean, think you need to kind of think about it and be like, ’cause some people use it as an excuse, like, oh, you know, I, I need time.

[01:34:10] Danielle: And I, but it’s really ’cause they’re scared to share their work. So I think you have to reflect a little bit and be like, why don’t I want to share? Is it because I need time to develop these ideas into process? Or am I scared shitless about putting this out here and having a troll say something? Um, ’cause that’s valid too.

[01:34:31] Danielle: Um, I also think if you’re really uncomfortable, don’t post Instagram. That is fine, you know? Um, but come to things like this, like, make sure you’re not in a vacuum. Make sure you’re not by yourself because really, um, the, the power of Instagram for me is community. And sometimes I’ll put stuff out and ask people like, what do you think of this?

[01:34:51] Danielle: And, you know, you get the odd mean thing. I just delete those because I don’t know those people and they don’t mean anything to me. The, the, the people that mean something to me [01:35:00] will have value. Um, but yeah, I, I say, I mean, social media didn’t use to exist. Something new is coming that we can’t, hasn’t been invented yet, so there’s no point in getting ourselves so hung up on something that is, I think, a weird temporary thing that we’re in.

[01:35:17] Danielle: A little boy said, he made me cry a little boy in grade seven made me cry today. They, uh, you know, grade seven, like who hears an artist who hears, ever heard their inner critic? Cool. Um, and so the teacher at the end said, um, Danielle’s gonna hang around. So if anybody wants to come up and ask her questions on their own, well the lineup.

[01:35:41] Danielle: ’cause they didn’t want anyone else to hear what they were asking. So this little boy came up and, you know, grade seven boys can look like they’re like six. So he was really little and he came up and he said, um, do you know, um, Sonic the Hedgehog? And I said, sure. And he said, well, I draw Sonic the Hedgehog.

[01:35:58] Danielle: And, um, I, all the time, and like [01:36:00] I’m, I’m quite good at it. And I also, um, you know, the Richmond Night market, I, I have a little booth there and I sell them. Um, and I was like, that’s, he’s like, I’ve been doing it for about three years just for donations, you know, and, um. And I said, good for you. So I’m thinking that’s where, and he said, and I, I post them on TikTok sometimes and I was like, cool.

[01:36:17] Danielle: And he goes, but um, I’ve been getting some really mean comments and I don’t know what to do about that. Oh my God. Like I just almost cried. Like he and his eyes filled up with tears. And so what I told him was, first of all, we should, I said, that happens to me too. And I said, we should feel sorry for those people because, um, they’re obviously mad and sad inside that they have to spend their time saying mean things to people that they don’t know.

[01:36:46] Danielle: Um, I said, you’re being brave and sharing, you know, your artwork with people and if they have something mean to say, um, that’s their problem. And I said, you, you need to know that after they’ve gone to your account, they go to someone else’s account and say something mean, and then they go to [01:37:00] someone else’s account and say something mean like it’s about them, it’s not about you.

[01:37:03] Danielle: And he said, okay. And I said, I said, can you turn the comments off? ’cause I don’t, I’m not on TikTok, so I know on Instagram you can turn on. And he said, yeah, I could turn it off. And he goes, but I also got, get lots of really nice comments. And I said, aha, okay, well can we focus on them? He’s like, it’s hard.

[01:37:22] Danielle: And I said, I know. And I said, you know when you get a report card back and you have all A’s but one C and all you can think about is that C. And I said, and he was like, yes, I know about that. And I said, okay, it’s the same thing. So let’s concentrate on the A’s and you can delete the C and move along. And I said, but if you ever get tired of it, you can just, you don’t have to do it, just go to the night market, just show kids at school.

[01:37:44] Danielle: And he was like, okay. But I almost cried because it was just out of the mouths of babes. Like, we all feel like that, but you know, it was just kind of crushing. 

[01:37:56] Attendee: Thank you so much. Um, if anyone has any questions, put up your hand. Wait for the [01:38:00] mic. I’ll run it around. Perfect. And just make sure you stick right into that mic.

[01:38:04] Attendee: Okay. Hi. So, um, this isn’t a question, but my husband is a vice principal at the school you’re at today. And he goes, where are you going tonight? And I’m like, okay, God, I’m going to see the jealous curator. You’ve heard about her for years. And, um, he said, wait, is she from the Okanagan? I’m like, yeah. He goes, you know what?

[01:38:25] Attendee: A girl came into my grade seven girl came into my office today to grab a, you know, candy or a bottle of water. And she goes, Mr. Lee, Mr. Lee, I just heard the most amazing talk. This artist came in and she told us all about how hard it was for her, but she’s just kept going. And it was so inspiring. And I was so, I just had the best day.

[01:38:49] Attendee: And my husband told, my husband told me that. And I’ve followed you all along. I’ve collected your work and, uh, you know, last, you helped inspire me last year. I quit my job. [01:39:00] I shouldn’t have maybe. Um, and I’m making art full time in my, my basement and I’m loving it every single day. That’s all I’m doing.

[01:39:18] Attendee: But I also wanna say I had my first rejection, so that’s outta the way. 

[01:39:23] Danielle: That’s okay. That’s okay. 

[01:39:28] Attendee: I’d like to thank you for the inspiration as well, so thank you so much.

[01:39:37] Attendee: One out the front there. Coming up. Coming up. So hand up here. There you are. 

[01:39:46] Dan: Hi. 

[01:39:49] Attendee: I have been an artist for most of my life and I’ve lived as an artist. Professionally. I started a new medium, which is painting. I’ve been a sculptor [01:40:00] for many, many years. And how do you launch yourself? What do you do? I’ve got a body of work now that’s almost ready to go.

[01:40:08] Attendee: How do you I have been making public art and national monuments for, and, and that’s my shadow career. So now I’m doing. Personal work. How do you launch, how, where do you start? 

[01:40:25] Danielle: Well, um, did you guys hear that She’s a sculptor now? She’s painting. And um, how do you, how do you launch that new endeavor? You must have a zillion contacts.

[01:40:39] Danielle: I bet you do. Okay, so there’s your first assignment. Um, the list maker in me. Pour yourself a nice hot cup of coffee or tea or whatever your jam is and write a list of everyone you, you know, ’cause you’ll be surprised when you actually start thinking about like, who could I reach out to? And they might be sculpt or [01:41:00] people, they might be, you know, like in a different camp, but you don’t know what they’re connected to.

[01:41:07] Danielle: Um, and you’ve built this name and this reputation in this other area, it’s still art. I would reach out to a few people and be like, Hey, I’ve got this new body of work. And see what they say. Because they might go, oh, well there’s this gallery that I know that blah, blah, blah. Like you all, to all of you, you don’t understand the, the huge network you have at your fingertips because you might know one person, but they know 10 people.

[01:41:31] Danielle: But that they’re not gonna know what you want to do unless you reach out to that one person. Like, you know, and it can just take, you just have to reach out to as many people as you can. If there’s galleries you do, you wanna show it in a gallery? 

[01:41:45] Attendee: I don’t even know if I wanna show. Locally in the gallery.

[01:41:49] Attendee: Okay. At this point I, I am so, I feel so new as a painter. Right, right, right. I have been an artist. I have no, I have no problems with [01:42:00] discipline. Yeah. Or, or practice or confidence. 

[01:42:04] Danielle: Okay. So you’re at the very beginning of this new extravaganza. So you kind of get to pick your course, you get to pick the route.

[01:42:11] Danielle: So if you’re like, forget Vancouver, I wanna go to New York, London, Shanghai, like, whatever, uh, Hong Kong, like, there’s a lot of like Ama Dubai. Like, there’s amazing things happening everywhere. And that is the beauty of social media. Back in my day when I graduated from university, you had to take your slides around and unless you could get a afford a flight to go to New York and show your slides to someone in New York, you were showing in Victoria.

[01:42:37] Danielle: And if there was no galleries in Victoria that wrapped people like you, you were outta luck. That is not the case anymore. So here’s another list for you to write. Where do you wanna, where would you wanna show? Don’t worry that you haven’t shown before. Don’t worry about that. Sky’s the limit. Where would you wanna show?

[01:42:56] Danielle: And then go do a little bit of research like, you know, okay, so let’s [01:43:00] pick New York. So go and do some searching around, find. The galleries, not just the galleries that you love, but galleries that actually show work that is similar to yours, because then you know that they, that they would take you on their roster.

[01:43:13] Danielle: My mistake when I started was that I, I would just pick a gallery I loved and not even look at their roster and then they’d reject me. I’d get a rejection and be like, oh, I suck. No, I just went to the wrong gallery. Like, they, they were never gonna pick me because they know their collectors. They know their collectors aren’t gonna buy that.

[01:43:31] Danielle: Even if they liked me, it was the wrong fit. So find your fit and then you just can reach out. Like they’re very open to reaching out. Like that’s how it is now. Um, some of them will be like, we’re not taking submissions. That’s not a rejection. They’re not taking submissions. Don’t take that as like a, oh, I do suck.

[01:43:51] Danielle: Nope. They just aren’t taking submissions right now. Um, and so it’s a lot of legwork at the beginning. Um, I’m kind of in the same spot right [01:44:00] now, um, because with my own artwork, because um, my friend Martha, who did the ass for my book, um, she’s in Philly. She’s so talented, she’s so good. She’s like, I cannot sell in Philly.

[01:44:15] Danielle: Nobody wants my, it’s quirky and weird and whatever she said. After trial and error of trying different places, there are two galleries. One in Joshua Tree, California out in the middle of the desert, and this tiny town in Texas and these two galleries, she sells out before the art is even on the wall.

[01:44:32] Danielle: Yeah, because the gallery is a right fit and the collectors are a right fit. She’s like, I could try and, you know, have a show in Seattle. I wouldn’t sell anything, you know, or would. So, or maybe she will, and that will, that will be another place for her. But it’s, it’s trial and error, which is exhausting, but it really is finding the gallery that is a right fit for you, the right city.

[01:44:54] Danielle: Um, so it’s a lot of research on your part right now to go and find stuff that [01:45:00] looks like yours and that might be a fit. And then this feeds into the new book about bullshit. Check out who’s on their roster and then contact those artists. Email them, just email them and be like, Hey, I’m interested in, um, you know, possibly working with the gallery that you’re with.

[01:45:18] Danielle: What’s your experience been like? Because they might go, oh, I’m trying to get outta my contract and they do not pay me and they’re not promoting me properly. And then you can dodge a bullet, um, or they’ll say they’re amazing and you can go, great, thanks so much. And you know, like, it, it’s really up to us to do a lot of the legwork.

[01:45:36] Danielle: Um, but then it pays off so much 

[01:45:40] Attendee: is our current economic situation, which we know. Uh, is that a concern? Is that something that you bear into consideration or is it something, you know, just full steam ahead? 

[01:45:53] Danielle: It ain’t great? Uh, it is not great. Obviously, like my, those pieces, the trophy pieces I just showed [01:46:00] those, um, in Portland, I thought they were all gonna sell.

[01:46:02] Danielle: Um, there, there were $3,000 each. I thought, that’s not crazy. Nothing. Like, they’re just not. And so, which is heartbreaking, and my inner critic gets in my head and tells me that that’s because they’re not good enough. But I know they are good enough. I know that it’s the economy, it’s in the states. People are holding onto their money.

[01:46:21] Danielle: Um, and I was thinking about this actually while I was brushing my teeth this morning, that the thing is economy, politics, da da, da, da. Artists have always and will always make, because we can’t not so forget all that stuff. Like it is what it is. We can’t change it, we can’t control it. All you can do is keep on making, um, because that’s what we do.

[01:46:50] Attendee: What about, what are your thoughts? Sorry, just one more. What are your thoughts about say, searching for an agent? [01:47:00] 

[01:47:00] Danielle: Yeah. I don’t know very much about agents, especially in Canada. Are there aren’t agents? I don’t know. There are in the US and it’s worth reaching out. Borders don’t really,

[01:47:15] Danielle: yeah. Um, a couple months ago this would’ve been different. Um, maybe the uk. Um, but no, um, I think, uh, I, I don’t think that that, you know, borders matter like my, my literary agents in the US. My new publisher’s in the us um, the kids Books publisher was in Germany, you know, so I think just find your people, wherever those people are.

[01:47:36] Danielle: The, the world is a lot smaller than it used to be, you know? And email, you can reach out, you can zoom, you don’t have to fly anywhere. You can just do a zoom call. So. 

[01:47:46] Attendee: Perfect. We got another one right over here. Thank you.

[01:47:53] Attendee: Do you have insights and advice to share with us if we have lots of directions we could go [01:48:00] into, especially later on when we’ve tried stuff and if there’s, I bet there’s, uh, a number of multi hyphens in the room, and as I hear your story and see your body of work, I’m like, well, that’s a lot of things.

[01:48:09] Attendee: And you touched on it with the podcast of going, I had let that go. And when we think of your friend Oprah saying you can do anything, but you can’t do everything all at once. Uh, I know for myself is that there’s probably a lot of things I could do next, and I just get stuck in what direction to go into and get tired of it before it takes root.

[01:48:30] Attendee: Yeah. So based on like just the, like the journey you’ve gone on, is there something you share with us on how to decide which direction to go into and also save our energy when there are those, like sometimes you feel like we’re running into a wall versus that precipice we need to jump off of? 

[01:48:46] Danielle: Mm-hmm. I think that is all gut and I think, you know, um.

[01:48:53] Danielle: Like, for example, um, back in the day when Etsy first started, um, I was doing these little collages and I, [01:49:00] I did a, uh, I had a bunch in my little shop, but I did one that was a bear that was screaming a rainbow. Remember those? Everybody was screaming a rainbow. I, I did embroidery thread coming out of this bear’s mouth screaming this like prism rainbow.

[01:49:13] Danielle: It sold 15 minutes after I put it up and I was like, oh my God. And so I did another one and I put up, and it sold immediately and the other ones weren’t selling. And then I got people emailing me asking me to do more bears, and then I was like, oh, I don’t want to be the bear rainbow lady. Um, but they were selling, so your, your inner critic and like all, you know, all that stuff.

[01:49:33] Danielle: It feels good to sell stuff and it feels good to, but I was like, um, what? Like, I don’t want to do this. And so I made a decision that there will be no more screaming rainbow bears. Um, and then people were like, please do it. You know? And same with the podcast. People were like, please bring it back. And it’s like, well, I could, but like my gut says no.

[01:49:52] Danielle: Um, with jealous curator, when I started it and everybody had a blog, there were a billion design blogs. Um, and [01:50:00] everybody was, you know, had their own like, like fashion blog or, or, or, or interior. Oh, there were so many interior design blogs in like 2009. Um, but some of them, you could tell there was no passion behind it.

[01:50:13] Danielle: They were doing it because Target was buying ads on them for $25,000 and people figured it was a. Really great way to get rich and whatever, but you could tell the ones that were passionate, they’re still there today, but the other ones were kind of a flash in the pan. And so I would tell people when I talk, like, if your, if your passion is rock gardens, then do the thing about rock gardens.

[01:50:40] Danielle: Have a blog about rock gardens and it might not feel like you’re gonna get the big money from Target, but you’re gonna find your people and it’s gonna lead you down this organic path of things that you truly love. So, you know, don’t do the bear screaming a rainbow just because it’s popular. Like, and, and you know, in your gut.

[01:50:58] Danielle: Um, and again, it might be a [01:51:00] reflection thing. I’m a big coffee drinker, uh, so it might be a coffee and you sit down with your pink mole skin notebook and your author sweater and you just write stream of consciousness about all of those different ideas and you’ll kind of, you just have to trust yourself.

[01:51:16] Danielle: ’cause it’ll, there’ll be a couple in there that are the thing. And you’ll know, um, once you start doing it, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re not feeling like inspired to get up every day and do that thing, it really quickly becomes clear that, nope, that wasn’t it. Let it go and move on to the next thing. But you kind of have to really, again, for me it’s list making and stream of consciousness.

[01:51:37] Danielle: Writing is just like figuring out what do I want, what, you know, and this is good advice for me, saying, I don’t know what the next thing is. Maybe I need my notebook and to write these things down and be like. What is your true passion and what could you see doing every single day? And then the thing will come.

[01:51:56] Attendee: Thank you. 

[01:51:58] Danielle: Don’t do bear screaming rainbows. It’s been [01:52:00] done. 

[01:52:01] Attendee: Did I see another hand over there? I’ll come around. 

[01:52:05] Danielle: Dan, don’t do the bear. I, yeah, like I’m on it. I’m gonna do that as soon as I get home. Yeah, there’s a market for it. 

[01:52:12] Attendee: Alright, here you go. Hey, thanks. Uh, nihilistic, introverted, creative here. Hello.

[01:52:19] Attendee: Welcome. So, one of the problems I struggle with, like I’ve settled myself as an in-house creative. That’s how I get away from having to do shows or anything like that. I’ve always had a very standoffish relationship with popularity and fame. I don’t want any of that. Uh, but I want to share my vision in the creative side actions that I do.

[01:52:49] Attendee: Do you have any wisdom for someone like me? Of course 

[01:52:52] Danielle: I do. Have you learned nothing thus far? Um, yes. So when I started Jealous [01:53:00] Curator, um, I was still very aware of my ad world people. ’cause that’s sort of where I’d been creative the longest. And I didn’t want them to know I was doing it. I don’t know. I was embarrassed a little bit and, um, I wasn’t a writer and I had all these friends that were writers.

[01:53:14] Danielle: Um, I also didn’t want people to know, I didn’t want. The fame. I didn’t want, I didn’t want people to know I was an at-home mom in Steveston. I was like, that’s not exactly a loft in Brooklyn, you know? Um, so I, I, the Jealous curator was my pen name. I didn’t have my name anywhere on there. I didn’t have my picture on there.

[01:53:34] Danielle: Nobody knew for years. People thought the jealous curator was a man in London. And I just was like, ’cause I spelled with a u like color and stuff. And so I was just like, alright. And I just let that be and it was really good. ’cause it gave me about two years. It wasn’t until I went to that first conference, it gave me about two years just to find my footing.

[01:53:53] Danielle: Without any expectation, without anybody, you could be the next Banksy. You know, Banksy never shows up at shows. [01:54:00] There’s shows, but he or she, I wonder if Banksy is a woman anyway, um, never shows up at the shows, but is still prolifically creative. So have a pen name, you know, create under a different name and, and never ever show up at anything.

[01:54:18] Danielle: Yeah. 

[01:54:20] Attendee: Oops. We got another one back here.

[01:54:25] Attendee: Um, thank you Daniel and Dan for this amazing talk. So I have a question for you. I thank you for talking about patterns and I, uh, a pattern that I have seen in successful people is that they have personas to overcome certain limited beliefs or. Uh, struggles. But you mentioned Arlo, which is like your inner credit, but I would like to know more about the other personality You have to get shit done consistently.

[01:54:58] Attendee: Yeah. [01:55:00] 

[01:55:00] Danielle: Um, it is funny, the Js curator has kind of become that, uh, Danielle Issa, uh, procrastinates a little more than the gels curator, but I think that is just insecurities. Um, maybe it is a pen name thing. Um, I’ve been able to kind of have this other, like, I, I live in Summerland, a tiny little town, and nobody there knows what the jealous curator is or what I do.

[01:55:29] Danielle: I’m Charlie’s mom, basically. Um, and I love that. And, um, so maybe the jealous curator is my Get Shit done person. Um, it is really funny because people will say to me when I, when I come to things, they’re like, oh, you’re so different than I thought you’d be. Is that good or bad? Um, and I think it’s because I’ve kind of bought into maybe, I don’t know.

[01:55:56] Danielle: That’s a really good question. I gotta think about that a little bit because I think, yeah, [01:56:00] it’s maybe I’ve compartmentalized myself a little bit and having the pen name for two years first and getting my voice, um, under me, and, um. Getting a point of view and all of that stuff really let me, um, let this part of me be its own thing.

[01:56:20] Danielle: Um, so when I am in J’s curator mode, it is, I’m very efficient. Uh, Danielle Chrisa is not as efficient. Um, yeah, that’s a, that’s a deep question. 

[01:56:34] Attendee: Great question. Uh, we’ve got time for one more over here. Cheers. Okay. So I’m a big believer in like highlighting past bullshit that like highlights the present, if that makes sense.

[01:56:47] Attendee: Um, and I’m just wondering through your past design or agency work, what are top three top things that you would say that you can highlight today? [01:57:00] Moving through all of the things that you’ve gone through and like all the things that you’ve made, like what are three top things that you can kind of utilize today?

[01:57:07] Attendee: Like the bullshit that I learned back then? Yeah, like, like even just like characteristics about yourself. Like three things that you would say that you learned then that you are like, so grateful for now. Like, yeah. IE like time management, like something, I don’t know. Anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[01:57:23] Danielle: Um, I think one of the things that I said, um, at the very beginning about, um, like learning how to defend my work and like all the things I had to do when I was presenting to clients, um.

[01:57:36] Danielle: And, you know, being able to talk through a creative idea in front of a group, like, you know, of, of people who are gonna pay a lot of money for it. I’m so thankful for that now, because that really helps me when I’m talking about either like, pitching a book or, or you know, uh, when I was at that art show in Portland, like talking to people about the work, like I have learned how to confidently talk about it and not do [01:58:00] the Oh, well, because as a creative director, can you imagine trying to sell an idea to an a client and being like, oh, I dunno if it’s that good, they’d be like, what time for an agency review?

[01:58:10] Danielle: Um, so that was, that was huge. Um, God,

[01:58:21] Danielle: yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In art school, I was not conceptual at all. I didn’t know how to think like that. Um, or, and they just didn’t teach us how we were just supposed to know. But like, the worst thing I’d been through at that point was being hung over after pub night. So I had, like, I had nothing to draw on, but, um, when I worked at taxi doing brand development, whatever, it was so conceptual and like trying to illustrate something, um, through just the logo or through whatever, and having to, to, to take your idea from something into a visual, that was huge.

[01:58:56] Danielle: And that’s really helped me, um, composition. [01:59:00] Like, I feel like my, I feel like you’re a designer, right? Are you a graphic designer? Okay. Um, so well even that too, I find that, um, the, the, the things that you learn there, like, um, negative space and composition and all of that. I think working as a graphic designer for so long, um, now when I, when I make art, it totally reminds me of my design work, like the color choices, the composition, all of that stuff.

[01:59:32] Danielle: But it’s for me, it’s not for a client. Um, and for a long time, because my degree says painting collage didn’t count for me, and it came so easily to me. I think because I designed for 18 years that I can do a collage in my sleep. And so therefore it doesn’t count. Um, I always joke that you can’t spell painting without pain.

[01:59:55] Danielle: Um, and because collage has no pain for me, um, but if I think [02:00:00] about it, you know, that, that 10,000 hours you become an expert. Really, my design, like working as a designer for 18 years did that and, and now I have finally hit my fifties and figured out, oh, you know, all those things I learned, um, I can apply to the art that I’m doing now.

[02:00:20] Danielle: Um, and it does count and it is real art. And, um, like Dan said earlier, I can take everything, all these things, good experiences, bad experiences, and they are who I am now. And I can either embrace that. Which I’m doing or shun it, and it’s so much better to embrace it.