Brand Design Secrets from Local Legends – Creative Pulse Panel + Social

[00:00:00] Ami: Pamela Runis, Greg Durell, and Margarita Porra. Round of applause. Come up and join me.

[00:00:15] Greg: Awesome.

[00:00:18] Greg: We’re opening with karaoke, right? Yes. Is that what we’re doing? All right.

[00:00:22] Ami: Yeah. Perfect. You missed the mic check. It was really good. Um, okay. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to kick off with Pam. Uh, I’m going to hand over the, the clicker and she’s going to tell us a little bit of our process and, and background and we’ll get to know her a little bit.

[00:00:36] Pamela: Turning on the mic is a good, do I sit or do I stand? I’m just going to chill. I’m just going to sit. Um, okay. Okay. So yeah, it’s me, Pamela Rooney. That’s how you pronounce my last name, if you didn’t know. Um, so I’m just gonna tell you a few of my favorite things. Let’s just start here. So I don’t think I look 40.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Pamela: That’s one of my favorite things. Is it the skin care? Is it the immaturity? Nobody knows. Um, I’m just saying this to show my career trajectory, which I showed in a talk recently and people found it interesting. I started off By going to school at Emily Carr, I got my BFA in 2006. Uh, worked in the gallery scene, then went back to school.

[00:01:22] Pamela: Was fortunate enough to be able to go to the IDEA program. And then started working in smaller agencies. And then I’ve been at, um, Rethink for ten years. And during that time, I was also co publisher and, um, designer for SadMag. And then I stopped doing that because I’m not crazy anymore. And then freelance, you know, as it suits me.

[00:01:45] Pamela: So that’s, that’s me in a nutshell. Any kind of packaging is also one of my favorite things. I love packaging. Probably my favorite design project. It’s just so contained. It’s just this perfect little [00:02:00] snack of a project. This is some work from Dominion Cider. And, um, from an earlier, uh, grouping of ciders I did for them.

[00:02:12] Pamela: I mean, packaging, I love packaging because of the different textures. Um, we did this, um, canned wine. Where there’s metallic in the shapes of the different wine glasses that you use for the different types of wine. And then matte in the rest of the can. I just love that. And then another thing about packaging that I love is all the little moments, the little surprise moments that you can add the little surprise and delight.

[00:02:41] Pamela: You know, when you open a package, when you look at it from a certain angle, um, this bear skin bar, which is like bath bombs. Um, I did, you can see, I use the negative space of the letters to create the, uh, logo, which kind of acts like a pattern [00:03:00] when used across the corner here. Love that. Another thing I love color.

[00:03:06] Pamela: Hello. If you know me, you know I love color. Uh, worked on this project, um, a couple years ago for SmartSweets. I mean, what’s more colorful than candy? Um, no, it seems like not much, but this CGI still is from a three second shot that cost probably more than the rest of the entire commercial. But you gotta sweat the details.

[00:03:29] Pamela: Um, the candy had to look just right. Um, here’s some more packaging. Again, my first love. Um, for Collage Collage, local arts and crafts company that are amazing. I was lucky enough to do their whole suite of packaging using collage, duh. Um, this is from Sad Mag’s high school issue. Um, it’s a [00:04:00] centerfold calendar made of rulers.

[00:04:04] Pamela: Super fun. Again, the colors. I mean, I do love color, but I would say that My trick with color is to still use a limited color palette. I think that’s the trick with making color look. Here’s another spread from an old sad mag. And I even try to sneak color in to corporate clients, you know, where they let me, if they let me.

[00:04:29] Pamela: This is some work for Shaw, R. A. P. Shaw. Um, and then I’m just going to leave you with some, some things at work that I know. That’s probably why you’re here. Want to learn things? These are four things at work that we use at Rethink. So how we start every project is fast and loose. So we have a saying at Rethink, your best idea is either your first or your hundredth, and you don’t know unless you do a hundred.

[00:04:54] Pamela: But how do you do a hundred ideas? Like, that’s crazy. It’s not crazy if you are sketching them and [00:05:00] you’re fast and loose. And we’ll, we’ll start a project like that, and then maybe we’ll take, you know, some of the best sketches and we might, you know, clean them up a little like we did here. For, uh, craft.

[00:05:16] Pamela: This is maybe like a 10th of what we showed them. We were able to show them so many different ideas for their merch because we, we sketched them and they did just choose the most boring one and imagine how mad I would be if I had like spent so much time on the fun ones, you know? So that’s where that gets you fast and loose.

[00:05:33] Pamela: It is the way. Another one of my favorite design tips, what’s in the way is the way so many times we come up against. Difficult things, maybe it’s budgetary, uh, restrictions or anything in the design. And usually leaning into it is the answer. Um, when we were working with SadMag before we [00:06:00] had operational funding, uh, you know, it’s expensive to make a magazine and we’re like trying to find ways to cut costs and, um, I decided, okay, well, if four inks cost this much, maybe.

[00:06:15] Pamela: Maybe I’ll print two of the four signatures in two color. Whoops, where did it go? I’m missing a slide. Well, anyway. Well, what I did was I printed them in two color, uh, two of the four signatures, and what that did was it gave us this great look, first of all, for each of our issues. Um, it was like a signature color scheme for each issue.

[00:06:43] Pamela: And then I passed that limitation down to the illustrators for those issues. And they ended up creating very cool work. And that’s probably, um, coming from my like printmaking background. Well, I wanted to do that, but it was, it got me really good at briefing them. And I think they made some awesome stuff.[00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Pamela: Another tip I will say, this is really great. If you want to be distinctive, if you want your work to stand out, this is a really great formula. So to be familiar and novel right in the middle, that’s that sweet spot. And you have to be. So that people aren’t freaked out, but you have to be novel so they catch your, so you catch their eye.

[00:07:30] Pamela: Um, an example of this is, um, a project I did for AIMW. Um, they had some merch that was just very ugly and just sitting in boxes. And we said, well, what if we remix this? What if we cut it up? And we worked with Frankie Collective to do, um, a streetwear collection using that. And it was just that perfect mix of, you know, everyone knows A& W, but that streetwear angle was that freshness, that [00:08:00] novel, novelty that caught everyone’s attention.

[00:08:03] Pamela: That also works for any kind of parody work. I’ve done a lot of that for SadMag, for merch. Super fun. This is why Hollywood recycles IP, you know, it’s a formula that works. Um, and you know, if all else fails, give them what they want, show them what they need. This is something we say at Rethink all the time, if a client is asking you to do something, you know, is not the answer, you know, you just show it, you show it, but then you also show what you want.

[00:08:36] Pamela: There’s nothing worse than knowing you didn’t try because then you’re always like kicking yourself, like, what if, what if, Buy your idea, but at least you tried to sell it and you got it out there. So yeah, that’s me. And I’ll, we’ll talk more later.

[00:08:54] Ami: Beautiful. Round of applause for that.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Ami: Awesome. We’re going to go fast and furious over to Greg here. If you want to pass him the clicker.

[00:09:05] Greg: All right. So from a kaleidoscope of colors, I’m going to go all black and white here. Uh, no, that’s not true. Actually. I have color in my slides, but my slides are short. And by the way. The, what you talked about, what’s in the way is the way I really resonate with that.

[00:09:19] Greg: And maybe we’ll come back to that. So that’s me. Um, so my story begins in childhood dreams. Like as far as I can remember, I’ve been fascinated with logos and it started with sports teams and I always wanted jerseys, but my parents would never buy them for me. So at the age of six, I just started making them and I might be from Toronto, but I’ve always had love for Vancouver.

[00:09:44] Greg: Okay. And somehow, I don’t know how in my life, 30 years later, I stayed on that same dream and journey. And in the 2010s, alongside Ben Hulse, we left [00:10:00] a mark on the Canadian and international sports brand landscape. And had the opportunity to work with some of the biggest athletes in the world, as we see Bolt and Osaka behind us.

[00:10:11] Greg: Of all the logos that are here, my favorite is the Canada Snowboard one, which is the lower left corner. It’s an upside down maple leaf that’s the peak of the mountain in a black diamond. Like, are you kidding me? I just love that one! I still can’t believe we did that one. And then somehow meanwhile, during that time, um, I happened to become a filmmaker and I directed design Canada, a documentary film that looks at the symbols and logos that created Canada’s national identity.

[00:10:43] Greg: And what literally started out of a backpack as a personal project turned into a global tour and crazy media blitz. Um, I did a TED talk on it, um, and what, what ended up happening was that, um, [00:11:00] through all these years and decades of chasing milestones, when I came up for air at the end of all this, I felt empty and nothing.

[00:11:09] Greg: I, I, I Terrified that I’d typecast myself as the Canadian Maple Leaf Sports brand guy. There was one day someone stopped me on the street like, Hey, you’re the flag guy. And like, I don’t, I don’t want to be that guy. You know what I mean? There’s nothing wrong with that guy. I’m sure he’s a good guy. But I just didn’t want to be known as that.

[00:11:26] Greg: So, um, last year I restarted my life and started a new design studio called Tomorrow. And really our, our, our purpose and mission is to help ambitious organizations, entrepreneurs, and brands make a positive impact. Um, so here are just a few, uh, projects that we’ve worked on recently. And, um, I think, I think that’s my last slide.

[00:11:48] Greg: Yes, that’s it. Over to you, Margarita.[00:12:00] 

[00:12:00] Margherita: I like that logo too. Alright. I’m Margarita Porra and My agency which I prefer to call a design practice or studio is arithmetic We are female founded, just me, and I founded it 20 years ago. This November is my 20th anniversary. Oh, yeah.

[00:12:29] Margherita: I really appreciate that because when I started there were zero female founders of creative agencies. And there were very few female founders. Head honchos making decisions hiring agencies, too. So there was a lot of pretty insulting questions I got in the beginning and it was pretty difficult in the beginning and and plus I looked young so it was it was complicated but here I am and We’re the longest running.

[00:12:57] Margherita: We’ve won 45 awards in last year [00:13:00] Um, and, uh, yeah, feeling pretty good about it. So what we do is we build brands for humankind, and we do that through building emotional connection. And we’re, at the same time, redefining what luxury means by bringing it back to where luxury actually started. Um, sustainability, slowness, craftsmanship, uh, respect for the earth, respect for materialities.

[00:13:25] Margherita: Um, and not about consumption. Um, my big thing, I preach about this to everybody, this doesn’t just stay in the studio, this bleeds into every area of my life, is that the real mission in branding is emotional connection. And I would say the real mission in my life is probably emotional connection as well too.

[00:13:47] Margherita: The remarkable Maya Angelou said, I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. I take that pretty seriously, I think like when you [00:14:00] run a business and for 20 years, you can feel a lot of shitty feelings, um, and if you flip this, and you actually think about this in terms of a brand, if, if you think about this like, people will never forget how a brand made them feel, Or sorry, people forget what a brand said, people forget what a brand did, but they’ll never forget what a brand did to make them feel something, a company, a service, whatever it is they engaged with, they’ll never forget if you’ve, if they had a shitty experience.

[00:14:27] Margherita: Um, so it’s something that we put through all of our, it’s kind of the thread that runs through our entire process and it’s from start to finish and our entire process is, is talking about creating an emotional connection. So this is kind of like at a snapshot what our process looks like. It starts with beginner’s mind.

[00:14:44] Margherita: I am not one for egos in the studio, and I’m not one for assuming, you know, a single thing we always start with listening, asking a lot of questions. And even before that, we just try to build rapport and build a connection with every single person we’re working with. So even in the [00:15:00] like prospecting stage, they haven’t even, I haven’t even signed on a client.

[00:15:03] Margherita: I’m just building a relationship at that point. And when you do that, you don’t actually care if they sign off with you, because you might have just got a new friend. Um, and then we, we start from this, like, it’s a Japanese, um, concept, Shaoshin, um, basically means, like, act, be a child. Act like you don’t know anything.

[00:15:19] Margherita: Ask the dumb questions. Um, be curious. Shut up, you know, listen, for a while. Um, and then we do a lot of research. Um, we’re pretty, pretty heavy on research. Uh, we will research for, for so much longer than, um, until we start designing. Uh, and that’s where the nuggets come from. Like, that’s where the ideas actually come from.

[00:15:39] Margherita: Um, and then cultural anthropology, it’s all about linking for us. So, like, what’s happening over here in music, what’s happening over here in fashion, what’s happening over here in, um, politics, or whatever it is going on, what are the shifts and changes that are happening in culture, um, and asking, again, a ton of questions of, of what’s happening with people.

[00:15:58] Margherita: Then we go into strategy and design, [00:16:00] uh, strategy vision. We paint the picture, we get approval, and then we move into design. So, design doesn’t happen right away. We are definitely not your typical graphic design studio. Um, this is a big question that we ask all throughout our process. What does it mean to live life as a human being in the world?

[00:16:17] Margherita: I very, very consciously don’t say consumer, I don’t say demographic, I’m constantly talking about the human being, and I’m wanting to stand in their shoes, um, So that’s, that’s a big one for me, it’s like, how can I feel what they’re feeling as early and as often as possible in the design process? Um, because if I can feel, um, Even, like, a tenth of what they’re going through, then maybe I have a chance or an opportunity to affect change in their life, and maybe I could just make one thing easier, and maybe they’ll feel a little bit better that day when they wake up, or, um, you know, like, someone gets them.

[00:16:49] Margherita: This is our studio. Um, we’ve been on Gravel Island for 17 years. This particular studio for 13 years. Um, [00:17:00] and, uh, we’re really grateful to be working on the Musqueam and Tsleil Waututh nations. Um, it’s a beautiful place. The reason we’re on Granville Island is because I’m obsessed with markets. When I travel the world, I just find out every single market I can find, whether it’s a food market, a flea market.

[00:17:14] Margherita: I drive everyone crazy because I will. Just keep finding them. It’s that and like hot springs for me or thermal baths. Um, when you go into a market, you see real people, people wake up at like 5:00 AM people who like really give a shit about what they’re doing. People really care about quality. They’re standing there selling the thing that they harvested or that they made or they sourced or whatnot.

[00:17:33] Margherita: Um, and it’s grit. It’s the grit in their eyes that I really, really appreciate. So my studio is on Granville Island, but I recently moved to a plot of land, uh, about five hours north of here. It’s deep, deep woods, dirt road kind of thing, potholes. Uh, and there’s the only neighbors are like these free range cows.

[00:17:55] Margherita: Um, so it’s, it’s a pretty, pretty different experience than what I have right now. We moved in [00:18:00] 2021. Um, kind of got dragged out. My husband kind of dragged me out, but there was one of those moments where I was like, Oh, I was supposed to be here all along. Um, In, in 2021, uh, something really interesting happened for me.

[00:18:14] Margherita: I got dragged out because my husband wanted to spend a summer, a summer, which now we live there, uh, to just play with the land. He wanted to like dig up the land and plant things and, and be a farmer. Uh, at the same time, I was going back and forth between Vancouver and where we live. And I was listening to Robin Kimmerer, Kimmerer Wall’s book, um, Sweet, Braiding Sweetgrass.

[00:18:34] Margherita: And she, like, One of the things she said really stood out to me, um, which is half of the truths that we, that the earth endows us with, sorry, half of the truth is that the earth endows us with a great gift, and the other half of the truth is that the gift is not enough. The responsibility does not lie with nature alone.

[00:18:54] Margherita: Half of the responsibility lies within us. At the same time, I was also working with [00:19:00] Squalwin, which is an indigenous skincare brand based out of Squamish, Squamish, and, uh, the founder, Lee Joseph, uh, is an ethnobotanist. And she took me through the Squamish estuary, and she walked me through every plant, and she pulled one rose, uh, wild rose petal off, and told me to put it on my tongue, but told me to leave the rest of the petals for the pollinators.

[00:19:22] Margherita: I felt the, that rose essence dissolve on my tongue. She pulled back Devil’s Club for me and told me stories, um, from her family. And we spent, I think, six hours in this estuary. I felt the breeze in my air. I smelt the water of the, of the salt water coming in. And then I drove back to where we live and fires were wrapping around everywhere.

[00:19:44] Margherita: There was fires down the highway. I literally was driving by fires. There was fires within, uh, I think it was like 50 kilometers where we live. My lungs were choked with smoke. The only place we could go was, like, down by the creek. I had a three year old daughter at the time, and [00:20:00] everything that I ever heard from David Suzuki when I was a little kid just came rushing back to me, and I, I was reinforced with everything that I had already been doing with my work, but with, like, a whole new energy.

[00:20:13] Margherita: Um, There’s something about being a parent, having your home kind of in risk of fire, and learning about indigenous culture, uh, all at the same time that just completely changed me. So that’s why we moved up here. This is me literally walking my neighbor’s sheep, um, because I guess you don’t walk dogs. I’m the city girl going wild here.

[00:20:33] Margherita: Um, that’s just at the top of where we live. So we’re up quite high and this is, This is me cold plunging, um, on January 1st when it was like minus 40, because I’m crazy. Uh, okay, so that was kind of this reminder moment in my life, but, but about 15 years ago, this is when I first started, um, digging into removing plastic from [00:21:00] packaging.

[00:21:00] Margherita: So we got a bread, a bread client. And they wanted a window for their beautiful artisanal loaves. And I didn’t want to do a window, um, because I didn’t want to do plastic. So we got into a bit of a fight about it. And then I had this moment, because what was in my way, became the way. And 15 years ago, no one was talking about PLA biodegradable films.

[00:21:19] Margherita: Um, um, Except for this one company that I had read a certain trade article on and couldn’t find any information. Client didn’t want to hire me to like pay me for anything other than making some cute bags. So I just got on the phone and I called and I called and I made hundreds of phone calls and I eventually got through and found the The supplier that made the PLA that was biodegradable.

[00:21:43] Margherita: And I found the printer that manufactured the machines in Asia. And I asked for his distribution list of who he sold them to. And then I introduced the two companies together to produce the bags for them. So, that was 15 years ago and here we are now. Still not doing plastic, but for [00:22:00] luxury brands. Using, um, fabric.

[00:22:02] Margherita: Using, uh, sustainably GOTS certified wool for inserts. Uh, FSC certified papers. Instead of for ice cream cartons, we’re not using plastic. We’re using glass. That’s food safe Tin for lids that’s highly recyclable So then we do the whole brand stories like interior design furniture design Wallpaper everything so we’re multidisciplinary interdisciplinary we do uniforms and pins and all sorts of things This is a bagasse, uh, project that was using a waste stream.

[00:22:38] Margherita: So that’s my big kind of passion right now is how can I use waste streams, uh, or how can I be re use, um, reusable. So this is, uh, Reusable kind of reinforcing reusability. Um, and this is how can I reuse? Do you use waste stream? So from the sugar? manufacturing process There’s the gas which is the waste the husk and you can mold it into [00:23:00] packaging all glass or PCR plastic if we have to use it for safety.

[00:23:06] Margherita: I think I’m over aren’t I? No, I’m okay. I’m like speed talking now Okay Um I’m blocking the stream, my bad. Oh, I was just trying

[00:23:18] Greg: to show off my shoes. Yeah, I was like,

[00:23:20] Margherita: nice kicks, bro. Um, so I think I missed Okay, no, all right. Anyways, so if we did a comb, this looks plastic. It’s, it’s, uh, recycled plastic. Um, glass is highly recyclable.

[00:23:34] Margherita: It’s made out of sand. Um, and then we tell a whole entire brand story. So this entire project was about how much can we remove from it? How can I, how much can I eliminate from every single step of the process from our design process to the consumer and use? And so then the whole entire photo shoot was about.

[00:23:52] Margherita: Stripping it all away, and relating the human body to nature’s forms. Um, and doing a study of humans, and doing a study of [00:24:00] nature, and drawing the connection. Um, and the brand is called United and Free, so it’s all about unity and connection, and what not. Um, Good Juju is a independent female founded, um, Zero plastic waste, uh, body care and laundry, uh, brand.

[00:24:17] Margherita: Um, great founders, love them. And they came to us asking for like a tuck and fold box. And I was like, okay, I’ll do probably that in some too. It was this one. How do I sell? Wait,

[00:24:37] Margherita: I need to see that. Ooh. Okay. So this is corn. It’s organic certified corn and it dissolves in your kitchen sink in about three seconds. Um, so instead of doing a plastic insert or a cardboard insert that, um, wastes a tree and then it has to be recycled, um, we, we were using these, uh, inserts. They’re not the easiest thing to cut a [00:25:00] perfect circle out of, so that was fun.

[00:25:02] Margherita: And they, they, they, they change a lot. They’re very malleable. Um, but it was a fun project. Um, we really worked, um, well in, when we dig, Dig deep and dive into research. This is Lumi. It’s a vegan brand. I dug so deep into The research on this project that I ended up stop eating meat because when you have when you’re informed and you do all the Reading on it and the other thing too is like how am I gonna change hamburger eaters?

[00:25:36] Margherita: Minds, how am I gonna do that? So I was like I need to I need to stand in their shoes. Um, so that’s that emotional connection. How can I get there? Um, so I can have a compelling conversation with the end user. Um, but we also wanted to talk about how the future of food tech is going to be kind of wild and crazy and a little weird.

[00:25:51] Margherita: Um, so we created all these like kind of wild graphics. Um, and we realized that we’re not going to talk about the things that are [00:26:00] upsetting or triggering for people, but we’re going to talk about positivity. We’re not going to, we’re going to talk about like. How could things be better? So, Make Change Happen became the tagline, and we talked about the future, um, and flexitarianisms, and so we did all the copywriting, um, we did the entire photo shoot, um, so it’s all about like food science and food tech, and it’s kind of super weird and fun.

[00:26:23] Margherita: So, these are really fun photo shoots to style, um, I do all my prop shopping myself, so I spent a lot of money at Home Depot for this one. I love going to Home Depot for ideas, by the way. So, I’m kind of the weird creative in Home Depot. Or dollar stores. But, yeah. Some fun photos. Is this Is this the one that I’m doing though?

[00:26:49] Margherita: I can’t remember. Ah, okay. Last project I’m going to show. We also do publication design. This is a book that we designed for Bjarke Ingels. He’s a pretty prominent architect. [00:27:00] And The entire project is called Energy Hub. It’s about, it’s about sustainability but also like the human experience in sustainability and the energy of the human and the energy of the building.

[00:27:10] Margherita: Uh, it’s based in San Jose. And, uh, they’re redeveloping San Jose right now. And this was a huge project, uh, that we were kind of working on in terms of that. So, All those projects, I could talk about each one for an hour, but anyways, there you go.

[00:27:27] Ami: Awesome, round of applause.

[00:27:34] Ami: That was amazing. I thought that would be better than any introduction I could give of them. So, thank you, uh, for giving us a flavor of what’s going on in your guys worlds, where you guys are coming from. Um, Pam, I know that you grew up on Vancouver Island, right? Correct. Um, talking about where we’re coming from, I think, Arriving in Vancouver From as an outsider in general is hard [00:28:00] like it’s a difficult city to crack It’s kind of notorious for that and then even further The creative scene here like the agency and studios and stuff like that or even harder to crack They’re a little more cliquey than your average Vancouver crowd.

[00:28:13] Ami: And so I’d love for you to share What helps you find your people? You know, find your collaborators, find the other creatives that you like to work with, uh, potential employers, potential clients as a freelancer, that type of thing. Paint us a picture.

[00:28:30] Pamela: Yeah, well, what happened to me was I went to Emily Carr, like I said, but I just This is like a country bumpkin.

[00:28:38] Pamela: I just stayed friends with the people that I went there with from from back home So I actually didn’t even like really make friends there. It wasn’t until I I started in the idea program That I felt finally like I found my people my fellow designers You I never felt truly like a [00:29:00] fine artist. Um, so it just felt right.

[00:29:03] Pamela: And I made lifelong friends in the IDEA program, and because the program’s so great, um, they ended up in good agencies, and there became that network. But at the same time, I um, I was online and I saw, uh, a friend posting, um, a rock and roll choir. And I was like, this looks interesting. I mean, like, I like rock and roll.

[00:29:30] Pamela: I like to sing. And I joined this rock and roll choir, the Kingsgate Chorus, and lo and behold, it’s filled with amazing, creative, wonderful people. That’s where I met Katie Stewart, and, uh, uh, fellow co publisher of Sad Mag at the time. Um, and that’s how I got involved with SADMEC, so just really, you know, following your passions, getting out there, meeting people, like, this evening.

[00:29:58] Pamela: These are all the people, you know, this is [00:30:00] how you get out, this is how you meet people. Um, and it is really in person, you know, I have met people online too, of course, um, I was recently on mat leave and I saw another female CD on mat leave who I’d never met in person and we met up, you know, so it’s also like just being brave, talking to people.

[00:30:21] Pamela: But yeah, that’s how I sort of have made my connections.

[00:30:24] Ami: Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, How big a role do you think SadMag had? Cause it was, for context guys, she was the CD. Um, um, but also then produced a podcast for, for, you know, there’s all sorts of things and, and really becoming quite central in like connecting the dots for creatives in this town.

[00:30:42] Ami: Like how, how important was that? To things like getting the gig at Rethink, in the beginning. You know what, I think it

[00:30:48] Pamela: was integral, um, Because, okay, when I started at SadMag, Sorry, I’m doing a really I did a bad job at, like, telling you my story, if you don’t know. Um, after I graduated from IDEA, I went to a smaller [00:31:00] agency, And, you know, I wasn’t doing, like, groovy work, I was, like, a junior, You know, we had small clients, it was, like, not fun work.

[00:31:08] Pamela: Um, and I get involved with SadMag because it’s scratching that creative itch, you know, I had to do something. And, you know, that’s the thing. Like, you can’t wait for people to hand you these perfect projects. You just have to make them yourself. Um, when I started working with SadMag, they had, they had just a couple of publications under their belt.

[00:31:27] Pamela: Um, started by a photographer. They didn’t really have a designer. And I was like, well, what, what can we change? And they were like, what, I don’t know, whatever you want. It’s completely volunteer, by the way. Like, not a paid situation. Labor of love. And then, and then we slowly just started changing things, like, what if it’s, you know, it’s, we’re gonna show only local creatives, we’re only gonna show film photography, we’re, you know, eventually, we were making a custom typeface for every issue, um, each issue’s, [00:32:00] eventually, each issue is themed, and we had our, like, um, color scheme for each issue.

[00:32:06] Pamela: So, you know, just trying to, like, create, like, a system, create, like, a community. We started, um, funding the magazine by throwing parties, because that’s how we could do it. We’d throw these, like, tribute parties at the Cobalt, like, every month, and then scrape together the funds. And then, yeah, you just meet all these people, and now I feel like I’ve, I’ve talked to almost every, like, illustrator and photographer.

[00:32:30] Pamela: So, yeah. Because of that it was like invaluable that wasn’t like why I did it to like meet people, but it was a You know it was what happened. Yeah,

[00:32:41] Ami: I think I stole your slide. That’s the slide you’re looking for right no Oh, okay, never mind good Okay,

[00:32:47] Pamela: oh Yeah, we did this funny. Yeah, this map. We did yeah The best place to make out in the city.

[00:32:55] Pamela: I don’t know if it’s still true. This is from a while ago.[00:33:00] 

[00:33:01] Ami: Awesome. Awesome. Um, shifting gears a bit. Uh, I’d love to ask you, Greg. So you know, you mentioned the work with design Canada. Um, how many of you guys have actually seen the documentary? Yeah. Okay. This is the room to ask. Um, not enough. More of you should watch it. So for the, for the ones who didn’t, he gave a little primer on what it was, but, uh, basically it was, Correct me if I’m wrong, like, an innovative group of Canadians were basically engineering what Canada’s identity would be in the 60s and 70s.

[00:33:33] Ami: Because we were kind of floating in this weird middle ground as a country is that kind of roughly correct correct me

[00:33:38] Greg: Yes, and by the way, I didn’t know he was gonna put this up on screen So he’s taking me right back to that Canadian Maple Leaf flag guy. No, it’s all good. I like this guy Yeah, so I would say it was a whole bunch of factors that sort of came together, um, You know, I, I actually just started out, I didn’t, I didn’t even know I was making a film in 2012 for the people that don’t know the story.

[00:33:57] Greg: I have just always been interested [00:34:00] in the history of design, and particularly like modernism in the 60s and 70s. And as a Canadian, just growing up, surrounded by all these logos, I was just so curious who made them. Like, who made the CN logo? It’s considered one of the best logos of all time, yet you couldn’t find out any of this information.

[00:34:16] Greg: And I was tired of kind of hearing the British story, the Dutch story, or the American story. So one day I just thought, like, fuck it, how hard can it be to make a documentary film? I’m just gonna whip that out in one year. Um, but, but really what, um, so what I thought was just, um, making a film about logos ended up being these logos were a window into Canada’s history.

[00:34:38] Greg: And I think the thesis of the film just kind of talks about coming out of World War II, Canada began to see itself as a nation. Yet, we still use all these like British ancestry flags and crests and coat of arms. And that’s where there was a push to redesign the Canadian flag, which is, um, I, I stole this from McLean’s Magazine and called, uh, called it Fair Use Documentary.

[00:34:58] Greg: You can do that stuff. So, that’s [00:35:00] where this image is from. Um, but yeah, so it was just like a whole bunch of things coming together of a country kind of growing up. And then meanwhile, after World War II, for people to know design history, a lot of those modernists that were in the time, they had to flee Europe because Hitler was recruiting designers.

[00:35:13] Greg: They didn’t want to work there and they moved over here. People from the Bauhaus came to North America. So, yeah. And Canada was a landing spot. And it just happened that a country was trying to find its identity while we had a wave of European immigrants that landed and led to, you know, the modernization of the flag, CBC, um, Expo 67, the Montreal Olympics, and all those, um, major historical events that happened.

[00:35:37] Ami: Wicked. Wicked. Um, What I see that as is like an epic deep dive into like learning from the greats You know what? I mean like the historic greats And one of the things that create a pulse events that I’m starting to get on a fairly consistent basis from people is like nervousness About the direction things are going in a lot of directions But specifically what I’m talking about is an industry like the things [00:36:00] that are happening in the creative space the things that are happening with technology And I wonder if there are any elements or lessons that you gained from making the documentary or even the practice of making the documentary that are giving you, like, faith and confidence or little, little tools for navigating the future.

[00:36:20] Greg: Just take me back to a dark place. No, I’m just kidding. Trying to figure out how to make a film by yourself in a living room. It’s wild times. Um, Here’s the thing. I think the biggest thing that I take from them is, uh, unbridled optimism. You know, that era of work and the type of work that they did. They believed that design could make this world a better place.

[00:36:39] Greg: Whether that was helping someone navigate through an airport or maybe, Creating a logo that makes a smile in your mind. Um, it’s kind of this unbridled optimism, you know, but if you even think about these designers that when I met them in their eighties, think about the transformations they went through in their career.

[00:36:57] Greg: I mean, they would have started out with metal lead [00:37:00] type. Like you want to print some like words on a piece of paper. You’re literally choosing metal E’s and F’s and G’s out of a drawer and assembling them. Into photo type setting that happened in the 60s into the computer, you know what I mean? So change is and it’s just part of human life and now we’re on this like AI thing and people kind of freak out But I’m sure people have seen the meme of we’re safe as designers because they would it would require clients to know what they want For us to lose our jobs, um, cause I, I feel like we’re tastemakers.

[00:37:31] Greg: That’s kind of what we do. So, so yeah, I don’t know. It’s just another tool. It’s all good to me. And, um, you just learn to use it or you don’t, but it’s not, I think, going to make or break the industry. That’s, that’s my hot take.

[00:37:41] Ami: Yeah. Optimism. I love it. Um, yeah. Shifting the perspective. I was wondering how long it would take for AI to come up and there it is.

[00:37:48] Ami: I kind of fed it to you. It’s all good. Um, that’s awesome. Um, Margarita. Yeah. One of the things that really stood out in our conversations leading up to this event, um, and just my [00:38:00] research is like, how prominent your philosophy is. Um, this is pulled straight off your website. Um, but, you know, a lot of companies have philosophies.

[00:38:09] Ami: A lot of them must have mission statements or whatever. Very few really, like, live by it. Um, and that’s not the sense I get in your case. I’d love for you to share kind of that journey in the last 20 years of like, you know, starting out without presumably a really strong sense of philosophy and like how you, you found that and the impact it’s had on your, on your company and direction.

[00:38:33] Margherita: Um, it’s a good question. So, After I just graduated design school, I went straight into fashion, and I went in house. I was working at a company that was the number one junior, number one selling junior girl streetwear line in Canada. It was like Roxy’s rival for Canada. I was, it was like me and 20 fashion designers, the only graphic designer, and it was like super analog.

[00:38:56] Margherita: Like I was, I was designing textiles, and then I was having to output [00:39:00] the film, like doing separations and outputting the film, and like manually writing. Colors for like it was also the triple five soul era so like every graphic had had like seven colors I’d like rhinestones and nail heads and like other wax shit, and we were vertical at the time We had which means we had a factory So I’d like run downstairs and work with the screen printers with my crazy idea, and they can’t happen I’m like I’m staying here till we figured out and then I’d go over the embroiderers I’m like embroider on top of this, and it was just like weird and crazy Didn’t really have a lot of values at all.

[00:39:28] Margherita: Like it really was just like about making crazy cool things. Um, and it really burnt me out. It was pretty rough. It was like the perfect first job. So I think, I think once you added my hours together, I was like 3 an hour. And if I ever see a Ikea kibbutz couch, I will like kick it because I slept on one so many times because I didn’t drive home.

[00:39:50] Margherita: Um, and it was such a bad situation that it started affecting my health. Um, and then I, then I worked at Aritzia and [00:40:00] had more bad situations and more bad experiences. Um, and I just kind of was like, you know, I need to start, start my own business. Um, I, so, anyways, started my business mostly just doing like graphics, like textile designs.

[00:40:13] Margherita: I was like getting quite well known for textile designs and it was, I was having a lot of fun. I worked for like Forever 21 and Timberland and, uh, Diodora, like tons and tons of brands. And it kind of was like, One of three textile designers in, in kind of Vancouver area. Um, so I got a lot of the fun jobs.

[00:40:31] Margherita: And then, I got sick. So, in 2008 ish, I, um, was working with kind of a dick client. Not my client anymore, so I can say that. Uh, and it was a pretty crappy project. It was like a pretty comprehensive big project. And she kept pushing the deadline and kind of putting a lot of pressure on me. Kind of toxic positivity kind of thing.

[00:40:56] Margherita: And I pulled a lot of all nighters. [00:41:00] Which is kind of like my norm at this point. I pulled lots of all nighters all the time in the front end of my career. And I woke up on a Friday. I’m sorry, Saturday morning, and I couldn’t feel my legs, um, after I’d done this, like, kind of boot camp. I couldn’t run, and my legs were, like, quite, like, puffy and whatnot, so I dragged myself to a walk in clinic.

[00:41:18] Margherita: They’re, like, five hours. I I was like, I think this is worse. Somehow drove myself to VGH and found out that I had a 6. 5 inch by 6. 5 inch, uh, tumor in my abdomen. And it was so big that the CT scan didn’t show anything. It didn’t show any of my organs. It just showed my intestines pushed up underneath my heart.

[00:41:36] Margherita: And it was a pretty tough period in my life. Um, there was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of, um, unknowns. And from there, that was removed. It was cancer, but it was removed. Um, a year later I had another tumor, uh, and then a few years after that my mom died of breast cancer within six months of being diagnosed.

[00:41:57] Margherita: And then two years, or six months after that I [00:42:00] found four more tumors. So what was happening in my personal life had to start coming into my, my work because it was such a big theme for me. I didn’t understand why I was getting these tumors, why I was getting sick, why they kept happening. It wasn’t genetic.

[00:42:16] Margherita: And I was like, if, if you knew me back then, you’d be like, a lot of my friends said that, so like, why is this happening, how is this happening, I would look at my friends and I would see my own mortality back in their eyes because they thought if this could happen to me for no reason, then it could happen to them.

[00:42:29] Margherita: I was like the picture of hell, I didn’t drink, I didn’t eat poorly, I ate really clean, I exercised, I didn’t do anything wrong, you know, so it was like, why is this happening? So I just started deep diving in my personal life of like macrobiotic and you know all these like how to get more nutrients in my body Where are the nutrients going in our food like our food situations becoming criminal?

[00:42:48] Margherita: Where the toxins coming in is it the hairspray is it the is it synthetic fabrics? It was like I just I went a little crazy. I’m not gonna lie. It got a little crazy for a while And that at that point I when I was like [00:43:00] well if I’m eating all these organic food But the foods coming in plastic I What are we doing here?

[00:43:04] Margherita: Right? So I was like, maybe I can make a difference, and maybe I can start, like, fighting with the little guys first, and start asking them to stop using plastic. Um, so every time a client came to me, not a single client came to me and said, I want to do plastic free packaging 15 years ago. They came to me, and they had a project, right?

[00:43:20] Margherita: And then I would convert them. So I would say, okay, well, I’ll do that for you, but I’m not going to be using plastic. And they’d be like, well, we need to use plastic because of these reasons. I’m like, I’ll do the research. I won’t charge you. So I just did that over and over and over again. Now I charge them, so.

[00:43:33] Margherita: Did I answer your question? Yeah, healed it, yeah. So I think like you can’t heal yourself without You can’t talk about healing yourself without talking about healing the earth. Like, we are one and we are connected. It is one and the same. So, if you truly believe in feeling better, then you need to talk about start talking about how the earth can heal itself as well too.

[00:43:53] Margherita: It’s a big, it’s a big macro micro conversation. Um, so basically my business is my soapbox, and I stand on it, [00:44:00] and I preach to anybody who will pay me.

[00:44:03] Greg: Yeah, do you want to jump in there too? Well,

[00:44:05] Pamela: I mean, I have just practical questions. Because you mentioned, you know, at first you like did not charge them for, for all the research.

[00:44:13] Pamela: Because when you’re going through all your work, I was like, this is hard to find. Because I’ve had to, I tried to do this too. I was like, we can’t use plastic. But I, like, kept coming up against walls. And I’m like, I, like, I’m out of resources. I can’t do this. Um, at what point, how do you, how do you even like build a project when it’s like something so new and you’re like, I don’t know if I can find a solution even to this?

[00:44:38] Pamela: Or how do you not, or like how do you, um, quote even, you know, if you know like that’s gonna happen?

[00:44:44] Margherita: Yeah, hmm. Um, now we have like a system and a model because we know how long it takes. Yeah, yeah. I think that in the beginning, so because of my fashion background, I got really good at sourcing. Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:56] Margherita: Really early, and so, and I, I like have to credit that to like [00:45:00] working, working at Flowsport and working at Aritzia, because it was like, you come up with an idea and they’d be like, well now we gotta find it, we gotta figure it out, um, Aritzia was great at being like, we’ll create any, we can do anything, and that was a different mindset than I had, like I, I’m raised by an Italian immigrant, like, you, you don’t get everything you want, so, I was like, ooh, this is fun, um, and so, I learned how to source really, really early on, and I also like really good thrifter.

[00:45:24] Margherita: I’m like, I’m a hunter, like in me, like I know how to find things. Um, kind of like a dog looking for a bone when I get my, like, when I get kind of get excited about something. Um, and, and so I just try to be really efficient. That was like, that’s one piece of it is I try to be as quick and efficient as possible.

[00:45:40] Margherita: That kind of happens when you’re passionate about something. Yeah. So that, that’s part of it. Um, and yeah, I mean, in the beginning there was one, like that bread, that bread packaging took an entire month. To find these companies, uh, to like kind of reverse engineer how we were gonna do it, um, and, uh, they didn’t end up paying me, like, for lots of things, so we [00:46:00] definitely didn’t make any money on that

[00:46:01] Pamela: project.

[00:46:01] Pamela: Yeah, and I imagine, like, even, like, switching up the way things are manufactured, like, that, uh, That’s going to up the cost per package for them too, so you also have to convince them to spend more.

[00:46:12] Margherita: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess you’re good at selling, huh? I think one of my skills, yeah, I’m like, oh yeah, one of my skills is positive persuasion, so I can create a very convincing argument, my husband hates me, I always win every argument.

[00:46:26] Margherita: Yeah, I think the thing is, I always thought it was terrible at selling, but like, when you’re really passionate about something, then you’re like, really, really good at selling it. Yeah, then you’re

[00:46:33] Pamela: not, it doesn’t

[00:46:34] Margherita: seem like BS. And see, that’s where I think it comes back to your question, is like, I care a lot.

[00:46:38] Margherita: Like, I really, really, like, give a shit about the earth. So, like, that, that is how I become non negotiable. Like, that’s, like, I don’t get bent. Like, we’ve recently had to bend a little bit, and it hurts me, and I, I kind of just have to get over it a little bit. Because, like, Um, security on lots of screw taps.

[00:46:57] Margherita: Like, we do a lot of high end, like, beauty brands. [00:47:00] And, uh, bioplastics. So, you know, like, they’re not plastic. They’re made out of vegetables and such. Are, when you put them into a lid, they’re, they’re not effective. So, efficacy is huge. Like, you can’t have products spilling when you’re shipping or, like, spoiling, et cetera.

[00:47:17] Margherita: So, now, like, and if you do a portion, like, if you do, like, a portion of PCR, Or a portion of bioplastic, it’s still not effective. So a lot of the times our lids, the lids in our projects have to be virgin plastic. Kills me like absolutely kills me But it’s like what am I gonna do tell this like founder who likes, you know Got two loans and like, you know saved up all their personal money quit their job to do this dream project That we have to do like bioplastic and it leaks everywhere and they have like an entire run They have to repay and you know fill mold fees and stuff.

[00:47:46] Margherita: So they haven’t figured out yet. Yes Oh, yeah, once they do, you know, that’s exactly it. Like we always tell our clients. I’m like Launch and iterate. It’s like a big thing We always say just like get it out there get the money get the customers And then let’s, we’ll just keep [00:48:00] our eye on this, like keep tracking what’s happening, and then we’ll be the first to it, we’ll get to it, you know?

[00:48:05] Margherita: And something is better than nothing. We always say to our clients too that, to like, be human with your consumers. Humans, like your consumers are humans. Like they have, they have values and they can’t access all their values. Like they may hate plastic, but they live in a suburb and they have to buy all their vegetables at Costco and it all comes in plastic.

[00:48:25] Margherita: But that doesn’t mean they don’t have values, right? So meet them where they are and say, look like we did all the research and here we’re here we are. Like we just can. Do this without some virgin plastic, but we’re trying come along for the journey Meet us and meet us in a year We’re gonna keep you in the loop and like, you know, keep buying from us.

[00:48:42] Margherita: We’re female founded blah blah blah and we’ll get there together So yeah, now we now we make money off of it Yeah But now we have like a crazy expulsion spreadsheet Excel spreadsheet of like how many hours it takes to to source to manage Everything so like none of our clients come to a like maybe [00:49:00] 1 percent comes to us with a supplier all of our all of our Projects were produced with suppliers that that we found So whether we found them in Europe or we found in Asia or found them in North America But we find our suppliers and we vet them when we build relationships And and we try to invest in them so that that they can keep doing things a lot of the time right now You’re gonna be my resource Well in none of none a lot of these suppliers actually You Do these things like we’re also going to them and saying like, could you do this, you know, so which is like for the glass, for example, we, which was the ice cream company for a project that we did, um, we wanted, like most ice cream cartons in the grocery store, like cardboard with a plastic lid, um, and I wanted it to be reusable.

[00:49:44] Margherita: That was my big thing with that project. I was like, I want people to reuse these and keep it and it was supposed to be like a bring it back program. It failed so miserably because no one returned them. They wanted Is it too nice? They’re like really pretty, you know? It’s like, it’s very transportive. It takes you to like Paris and makes you feel like you got a bougie little ice cream in your fridge.[00:50:00] 

[00:50:00] Margherita: Um, but apparently people love them for weed. Airtight. Um, yeah. But anyways, that’s a cosmetic supplier. So, I know because we do, like, obsessed with skincare and whatnot that like, skin skincare, um, vessels are food safe. So I went to a cosmetic supplier and I said, Most of their packaging is like, this big, right?

[00:50:19] Margherita: And so I said, well, would you make something bigger for me? Like, how much would that mold charge me? And like, can you like, give me all the certifications so when we import it to Canada that it’ll be food safe? And they’re like, yeah. Wow. Awesome.

[00:50:30] Greg: One of the things I take away from Can I just ask one observation?

[00:50:33] Greg: I just love your story that, um, you’re working, and you’re getting sick, and like, you know, life’s not looking up for you, and you’re not like Hey, maybe I need to change my profession. You’re just like, I got to change my clients. I’ve got to change my clients, you know, and like reshape the studio. Like I love that.

[00:50:50] Greg: It wasn’t like, I got to give this up. It’s like, no, I just need to work with different people.

[00:50:54] Margherita: My therapist version was you really like to stand in the mud. Don’t you? You don’t like to get out of the weeds. [00:51:00] I’m like, Hmm. There’s something about like. A roadblock that I just like get lit up on like I just yeah If it feels like it’s out of my reach, I want it more What

[00:51:13] Ami: I love about it and you mentioned this in your intro to is like These are lines That you drew that like if a client it sounds like if a client says listen, we just need the plastic like it has to happen They’re at risk of losing you and one of the things that you know, I speak a ton of creative And most people kind of accept whatever’s coming at them and don’t really see the option of out.

[00:51:38] Ami: It’s like, I can say no. And what you said earlier is like the first conversation is just two friends getting to know each other. It’s not about being desperate to close the business and it carries forward into the actual project. So you’re like, we’re going to find a sustainable way to do this. And if you choose otherwise, it sounds like you’re choosing another person.

[00:51:58] Ami: Like that’s. [00:52:00] It takes such strength to actually implement in a business that has to make the numbers work at the end of the day, right? So, I think that’s, that’s probably what brings the philosophy into real life. Yeah,

[00:52:11] Margherita: and I definitely have chosen, uh, people and values over profit from the beginning and probably to a fault.

[00:52:17] Margherita: You know, I probably could be way richer, but, uh, yeah, it’s, I just don’t have a choice. Yeah, I

[00:52:25] Ami: love it. Okay, um, switching gears a little bit, um, Pam, you prepared a case today. One of the things you said in the beginning is that packaging is your, you know, first love in, in design. Um, I’d love for you to, to show folks, uh, kind of an in depth, um, packaging project.

[00:52:44] Ami: And, and show us, I mean, Rethink has, has a pretty well thought out model. What that looks like when you’re actually executing a project. I’ll

[00:52:51] Pamela: give Okay. We’re like so different though. So this is like, okay. Anyways, whatever. Here we go. There’s plastic in this. [00:53:00] Sorry. Sorry. Um, okay. So this is the process at, at rethink, uh, the design process.

[00:53:09] Pamela: We’ve honed this for quite a number of years. Um, and before we get into this, there is strategy involved. There’s all the research. Oh. So, once all that’s done, we’re starting at our idea exploration, and like I mentioned, it’s fast and loose, we’re going wide, not deep, we’re doing lots of sketches, and then, we’re peer reviewing, um, peer review is a huge thing, everything, we have slack channels for peer review, um, we’re talking to people, and we’re iterating that way, which is really invaluable, I find my colleagues just a Big source of inspiration.

[00:53:52] Pamela: Um, so yeah, we start with our, um, wide, I idea search and then we call it [00:54:00] down to a few ideas. And this is the first presentation, um, to clients. So we call this shallow holes. Um, oftentimes, um, it is just sketches and do

[00:54:13] Greg: clients get like an invite to shallow holes? Presentation. I love it. What a name.

[00:54:18] Pamela: They absolutely do.

[00:54:20] Pamela: And then once, they’ll choose like one or two directions from there, and then we go into the deep dive, after shell holes, we go to the deep dive, and then after the deep dive, they’ll choose, make some choices, and then, and then the polish. So that is typically how it goes. Sometimes deep dive phase is a couple rounds, sometimes it’s several rounds, you know, you never know.

[00:54:43] Pamela: But, typically this is how it goes. So I’m going to take you through some work for Matchstick. Match that came to us and they wanted, um, to fill out their design system, um, they wanted to focus on community, [00:55:00] uh, which is huge for them. They did not want to change their monogram, which is fine, um, but they did need a lot of packaging.

[00:55:09] Pamela: So we started, again, with our shallow holes presentation, lots of sketches. You know, and we sketched, you know, um, you know, maybe each, um, neighborhood has its own, like, emblem. Maybe we, you know, have a tagline, maybe, I don’t know. It’s very wide, just to kind of get a taste for them, like, what, what are you, where are you thinking?

[00:55:28] Pamela: Because oftentimes, clients are like, they don’t know what they want until they kind of see a little bit of everything. So we showed them these sketches. They’re loose, right? Like, they’re not, like, pretty. But you get the idea, and you don’t have to stress. Can I jump in

[00:55:40] Greg: and ask a question again? Yes, please.

[00:55:41] Greg: So is this, is this how you guys work? Like, do you actually work in sketch form, or do you walk it back and put it in sketch form for this Shallow Holes presentation?

[00:55:50] Pamela: Um, usually we work in, uh, sketch form. Sometimes we walk it back. It depends, like, what, you know. Because there’s an innocence

[00:55:58] Greg: to this, right?

[00:55:58] Greg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you’re not making a big [00:56:00] commitment or anything. It’s just like very For sure. Sometimes we

[00:56:02] Pamela: do. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes we do. For sure. Um, or like, it’s kind of a hybrid. Even like that craft stuff I was showing you. Like, you know, I drew one t shirt and I just like copy and pasted it. And then, and then you’re like sketching on it.

[00:56:14] Pamela: So it’s kind of like, you know, just keeping it loose for them. So no one’s getting too precious. They’re focusing on the idea. You know. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, well, like these, yeah, they’re clearly sketched, but you get the idea. It’s like, make the M out of different stuff. You know, that’s the idea. And, um, just some preliminary sketches of, you know, bags, you know, using, uh, local artists.

[00:56:39] Pamela: Maybe each bag is a different local artist. You know, we showed them lots of different versions. And, and, yeah, they chose to, to use illustration. That was one of the things they liked. And so the deep dive, um, we showed them, uh, three different ways in. So, the first one, you know, I’m just grabbing [00:57:00] local artists and illustrators.

[00:57:01] Pamela: I don’t, at this point I do not know if they could do it. Or if we find someone that’s sort of like this or, you know, whatever. We’re just, it’s to prove a concept. Um, so that’s the, the system. This one used some photography as well. Mixed in. A second area really different. Um, they’re, you know, kind of a verbose client.

[00:57:25] Pamela: They had a lot of, like, philosophies and things they want to talk about. So we want to show, you know, how does that work, you know, across, you know, maybe one of their menu boards is, is a, is a quote or their philosophy or something. So showing something a little more serious. They didn’t want to go that way though.

[00:57:44] Pamela: They liked color, they liked fun. Um, and this area we showed two different illustrations. And you can see how that really changes the vibe. These two different illustrators. And they really liked, um, Maya Bokai. [00:58:00] Um, so these illustrations, I mean I just pulled them from her site. You know, change the colors to make them match so you get an idea.

[00:58:07] Pamela: And then, you know, they wanted us to do our due diligence. Like, is this the best illustrator? I don’t know. So, we go wide. We go wide again, and we show there’s still more even. Just, how does that look? What feels right to them? And, we did end up just going back to Maya. After all that, as you sometimes do. Um, And, and then we worked with her on, on making illustrations that felt right for the community.

[00:58:37] Pamela: Um, showing, you know, the space and the people around it. And, Sh Maya, um, wonderful illustrator, um, but you know, like, we can’t afford a million illustrations. So, we did a certain number, and we made sure they were vector, And we used the shit out of them. There were so [00:59:00] many parts or illustrations. We pulled them, like I pulled them apart, I changed the colors, I like used parts of them here, parts of them there.

[00:59:06] Pamela: So we really, uh, maximized the use, um, everywhere. Um, In the deep dive, we started showing, you know, kind of these flat schematics of like, what a bag, what could bags be, where is the illustration, is it on the front, is it on the side, is it in the gusset? Um, you know. They have a lot of copy, so that was something.

[00:59:28] Pamela: It has to be a system, you know? There’s many different copies, but it has to work in a system. Um, so when they change it, it makes sense. So, they add many other things. Even, like, more boring things. Like, like, Just the packaging that the coffee packs come in. But you can have fun, and we did. Um, we, we even tried to sell them on weird stuff like this, but they wouldn’t go for it, but wouldn’t that have been fun?

[00:59:55] Pamela: If they did. Um, I just love packaging so [01:00:00] much. This is where we ended up. Um, it worked pretty well. We, we fit all the necessary copy on there. Uh, we got to show her community on the front and the back, um, and focus in all the places where the coffee comes from as well.

[01:00:18] Pamela: There’s a up close shot in the back.

[01:00:27] Pamela: And then we really like just blew it out. We made postcards with their philosophy. We did their pastry box. And I don’t have a picture, but when you open it up, there’s, there’s a little philosophy about making things slow and properly. The coffee cups. Coffee cups are fun. Packaging is fun. Like, you’re always up against a new challenge.

[01:00:51] Pamela: Coffee cups, you know, flat, you know, are kind of like, almost like a rainbow shape. And then there’s always like, what do you do with the seam, you know? [01:01:00] Like, how do you make that work? And I don’t have a picture of it, but that’s where we run the logo up the side, or the word mark. Here’s a shot of the interiors.

[01:01:12] Pamela: So using those illustrations again in the menu boards. We even did little pins. Uh, this is the takeout containers. And then yeah, we had some challenges with, you know, the illustrations. Like how does it work in one color? You know, how do we make this work on like a plastic container? Sorry, Margarita.

[01:01:40] Ami: Make it out of corn, that’s how you make it work.

[01:01:43] Ami: Margarita’s just dying over here.

[01:01:44] Pamela: I don’t know, maybe it’s corn, I don’t know.

[01:01:47] Margherita: It could

[01:01:47] Pamela: be. It’s

[01:01:47] Margherita: biodegradable plastic.

[01:01:49] Pamela: Yeah, I don’t know. We can put it in the recycling bin. I

[01:01:52] Greg: feel awkward in between you two right now. I

[01:01:54] Pamela: know, I know. So different. Um, well this is a reusable [01:02:00] cup. A camping mug. This is fun because it, like, there is no seam on a camping cup, so we did get to make it a fully circular illustration, which is fun.

[01:02:11] Pamela: And of course, you know, more merch. I love merch. When it’s nice, when it’s shit, it’s bad for the environment. That’s true. Um, some kids sweatshirts. And of course, matchsticks.

[01:02:27] Ami: Beautiful. Awesome. Um, thank you for showing that to us. Um, as, as a creative director leading a team on projects like this, I imagine, let me put this another way.

[01:02:40] Ami: When you were working independently, finding a good idea is sometimes just like what you personally love. You’re just like, ah, just like get kicks out of this. But as you lead teams through projects and, and, and, Big brands, you need to define what good looks like. Do you at Rethink have a good definition and guidance for, for your teams and [01:03:00] yourselves to be like, this is, this is what good looks like.

[01:03:02] Pamela: Yeah. I mean, we have a saying for most creative projects. We have like an acronym we use crafts. So it stands for clear, relevant, achievable, fresh, true, and shareable. And. It’s a bit of a harder acronym, I think, to apply to design specifically, but it’s still something worth checking your work against. Um, we have a Slack channel called IsThisCrafts, where we, like, evaluate other people’s work, usually.

[01:03:36] Pamela: Like, stuff that comes up. Um, You know, that’s popular in pop culture. Like, is this, how is this working? And then, and then we give it a score. Like, what’s the C, what’s the score for clarity? What’s the score for achievability, freshness, shareability? And it’s really interesting. It, like, helps you stop to think about all of those factors which are important.

[01:03:58] Pamela: Um, and design, I feel like [01:04:00] clarity is paramount. Um, and yeah, it depends on the project. Which, like, letter is gonna be, um, Um, the most important, but yeah, crafts usually helps, and we do, like I said, we do a lot of peer review, we have a specific design Slack channel, Emily Blunt, we call it, where you give the blunt feedback, where you get to ask, you know, does this work, does that work, and then as far as like working, like, with other designers, um, and leading them, like, I feel like the best projects are really led by a clear vision, If the team has a very clear vision and it makes sense, like I’m not going to mess with it.

[01:04:39] Pamela: I mean, you’re just going to help help it along. If they don’t, then I will help them give them a clear vision. And I think that’s like the job of a creative director. I mean, I’m not here to impose, you know, what I like over anything. I mean, like I said, I think when a team’s like into the work, it’s [01:05:00] better.

[01:05:00] Pamela: I mean, that that’s just true.

[01:05:02] Ami: Beautiful. One of the things you covered there was shallow holes, that cool way that Rethink shares concepts. I’m curious, um, from the other two, how are you guys, how does that differ from how you share early concepts and go through, uh, with, with projects? Big question, but do you have a process that you follow every time or is it, walk us through that.

[01:05:21] Greg: Um, I’m the total opposite. Uh, I’m, I’m all deep dive. I’m deep dive. I might promise shallow holes and I might promise, oh yeah, we’re just going to see some sketches. But I love just like showing up with a 150 page deck and like, just like a doctoral thesis. That’s, that’s my style.

[01:05:43] Pamela: I’m sure they love it.

[01:05:45] Greg: Sometimes, sometimes not. But, uh, I’ll talk a little bit more about that in a few moments. So, Margarita, why don’t you jump in?

[01:05:51] Margherita: Oh, we’re cut from the same cloth. Yeah, I was like, maybe he should go first. It’s kind of embarrassing. Yeah, I think our, some of our pitch decks, like right off the bat, are like about [01:06:00] 80 pages.

[01:06:01] Margherita: So, yeah, we go, we go straight to the finish line. Because we spend so much time on the front end, with like research. And we, we, we have like four present, like four meetings, four presentations, um, before we even go to design. We’ve already, framed in what the cultural forecast is, what the reference is, who we’re speaking to, what the relationships are going to be like, um, we have taken the scope from like wide to quite narrow.

[01:06:27] Margherita: Um, so the solution is kind of like right here on a platter at that point. Um, the research, the like, that kind of cultural anthropology, it’s just like, it, like, it, the, the, it bubbles to the top of the bubbles to the surface. So then we just kind of, We just, we just go, kind of hear how, this is how it’s going to look, like we want to sell them, we want to, like not sell it to them, we want to like, we want to win them over, um, and then start making it happen.

[01:06:50] Margherita: And I think that at that point they’re like eager for it. They’re like dry mouthed and like waiting for something. And they’re like, come on, give

[01:06:56] Greg: it to me. Finally an image, all those text slides. Yeah, and they’re all like

[01:06:58] Margherita: tantric [01:07:00] design. What’s that? Tantric design.

[01:07:01] Pamela: Yeah, yeah.

[01:07:01] Margherita: Totally.

[01:07:04] Ami: I love it. Awesome, awesome.

[01:07:05] Ami: I think that’s a really good lead up. You know, you’re very research oriented. Uh, you’ve mentioned this a few times. Can you walk us through with the case study you prepared, um, how that shows up in the work? I’ll

[01:07:23] Margherita: Can I just do it? Just go back. Okay. Okay, another book. We have designed, um, produced, I would say, books. Quite a few books.

[01:07:38] Ami: Oh my gosh, yeah,

[01:07:40] Margherita: It’s like bedtime for me. Um, we, we, another book. Um, this book is Castiglia. Um, it’s an architect in Italy. And, um, um, I’ll just let you kind of look at it for a minute.

[01:07:56] Margherita: 367 pages, this was designed in 30 days, [01:08:00] um, with three people on the team. And the client gave me nothing. Absolutely nothing to work with. They gave me the architect’s name, a portfolio from the 80s, and, um, it’s, uh, and one problem, they said, the kitchens are really, really small, so figure that one out. Um, so if I go back, And then forward?

[01:08:25] Margherita: That’s like a song, right? Back, back, forward. You’re the song girl. I don’t know. Nope.

[01:08:39] Margherita: Alright. Um, okay. I think a lot of people talk about like inspiration and what that means to them is going on Pinterest and like pinning a bunch of things or like screen shitting the shit out of Instagram, um, or other people’s websites and then, and then like showing that to people. And I really, really, if I could get one message across [01:09:00] tonight, it would be that research is more important than that.

[01:09:03] Margherita: And I would call those screen captures and I would call Pinterest references. So you can use references to clients to like prove a point, be like, you know, this, we want to do minimalist, or we want to do decadent, or we want to do Art Nouveau, or whatever it is, and you can like pull references from the industry.

[01:09:20] Margherita: Great, and credit them too, right? Um, so maybe they hire us next time. But, uh, but what you want to do is research. And so this project, when I was given nothing from the client, um, and a very looming deadline, um, I dug into research. And so what we, do you want to be my like Vanna White and just keep looping?

[01:09:38] Margherita: I get to be the clicker? Oh, I’m the looper? I’m a clicker, I’m a

[01:09:41] Greg: looper now. Alright, let’s go. Yeah. Thank you.

[01:09:44] Margherita: Um, so what we did is, um, we found all the light. We found all the problems with the project. So we know we had like a small kitchen that wasn’t really desirable. Um, I had an architect with the without very much of a portfolio.

[01:09:56] Margherita: The architect didn’t want to really talk to me. So [01:10:00] I was like, fine, I’ll create a book about Italian design. Um, so I studied graphic design. Uh, and then after I studied graphic design, I actually went to SFU for a little stint and studied the Made in Italy equity. Uh, I’m of Italian heritage and it was a really fascinating experience.

[01:10:18] Margherita: Course that I had no idea what I was doing with and then this project came up Something like 15 years later, and I was like okay this entire project is gonna be about the made in Italy equity and so what we did is the These are selling like high end like very very very expensive Residences in a tower But I didn’t want it to be about that.

[01:10:42] Margherita: I wanted it to be a coffee table book that people will keep for years and years and so I just deep dived into B& B Italia and the history of Italian design, and what was happening in that kind of cultural anthropology at the same time. So what was happening at B& B Italia, which is Busnelli and Associates, [01:11:00] and, and then what was happening with women in Italy, and what was happening with manufacturing in Italy?

[01:11:05] Margherita: Um, and so for example, up until B& B, um, started in the kind of 60s, all furniture was like wood frame. And then in the 70s, um, Buzinelli went to London and he visited a rubber duck factory, and he, he was like, this is crazy. It’s like a one single piece of plastic. It’s my one time I talk about plastic in a good way, but, um, he was mesmerized by this.

[01:11:31] Margherita: So he went back to Italy and he was like, I want to do like foam injected furniture. And so then he created, uh, the iconic Le Bambola, a sofa, which is foam injected and Gaetano Bepesci made the, um, up chair. Um, and so I was like researching about this and I was like, okay, this is all interesting. But why?

[01:11:51] Margherita: What else was happening? What was going on? And Gaetano Pesci was, was fascinated with, um, what was happening in the feminist movement in Italy. [01:12:00] And so women didn’t have the right to vote in, until the 70s. And so they did this like massive thing, like the burning of the bras. Um, Gaetano Pesci is just like, like a true Italian design thinker where he’s like, why?

[01:12:11] Margherita: And how can I use my furniture as like this metaphor and whatnot? So he designs this up chair, which is like the female womb and there’s a ball, but it’s a chain. And if you guys, do you guys know this chair? Okay, when it, when it comes, it comes, um, shrink wrapped. Like, it’s like this big when it’s shipped.

[01:12:27] Margherita: And then you open it, and this chair just like inflates. It is a symbol of the uprising of the woman. So, we have this thing happening with like manufacturing wood frame chairs to mold injected chairs, and then we have women burning their bras because they want the right to vote, and then we have B& B Italia, which is this like, company that is essentially just bringing in creative minds to like, Play in this incredible warehouse, um, with all these resources.

[01:12:54] Margherita: Um, so what I started doing was like linking what was happening in history, what was happening in furniture design, what was [01:13:00] happening, um, with Italian culture. Um, so we did all the copywriting. I did all the research and everything. Um, not one thing was found from Pinterest or Instagram. When I hit roadblocks, I found Italian people and I just like, I think I knew this one restaurant in Granville Island where there’s like, The bartender was Italian, and also very good looking.

[01:13:19] Margherita: And I sat at that bar, uh, and I just like started asking him every single question I could find. Um, and I was like, why, like, why are kitchens so small? Like, I was like, what’s, what, tell me about kitchens in Italy. Like, he had just moved over, and he was like, well, um, let’s talk about the, you can’t talk about the kitchen in Italy unless you talk about the ingredients of like, how Italian foods are made.

[01:13:40] Margherita: And he’s like, you know, the, the top five, five Italian recipes are all made with like the same three ingredients and So it’s not about excess. It’s actually about minimalism. It’s actually about like Only necessity and what you need and and and it’s all about freshness, right? so so you go down to the market you buy the tomatoes you buy the basil you buy the fresh mozzarella and You go [01:14:00] home and you make you know, five different recipes from it And and then that plays into like why kitchens are actually Smaller because if you’re buying fresh every day, you don’t need a machine Massive fridge and a massive pantry because you’re like stockpiling coconut milk from Costco, right?

[01:14:15] Margherita: you know you’re buying fresh ingredients and And at the same time my dad was visiting actually my dad’s a bridge in here And he’s been living in the US for like the last 25 years And he came by and he was having dinner with me and he’s like what’s wrong with you And I was like, I don’t know how to solve this problem and like Like, I love small kitchens, and I need to make it glamorous.

[01:14:32] Margherita: And he’s like, have you heard of cucina semplice? And he’s like, it is a, it’s a thing in Italy. It’s like, we don’t want big kitchens. It’s like, we don’t need big kitchens. It’s like, you want a big table to eat with all your friends and all your family, but we don’t need a big kitchen. And so this problem that is a North American problem is actually not a problem in Italy.

[01:14:50] Margherita: Um, and so this client was like I don’t know how to sell these small kitchens, but because it was designed by this Italian architect, I mean, this small kitchen, um, but it’s actually, it wasn’t even a [01:15:00] problem. It was like the reason for being, um, for freshness, um, for simplicity. So, when you kind of like dig, and like you scratch past that surface, and you like get into it, you start to uncover stories, and you can, you can find these, all these different stories, but you link them together, and like that’s when you create a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful story.

[01:15:17] Margherita: So they, this client actually hired this like hotshot, A copywriter from London, and he was supposed to work on this, um, copyright, and he couldn’t get it, so I ended up doing all the copywriting on it, and it was, it was, uh, that’s like one of my favorite projects because it was done in 30 days, um, and it has this, like, incredible sense of Italy in it, and the cover is actually wrapped in Italian men’s, um, linen suiting.

[01:15:42] Margherita: So, and it’s debossed, um, with, with a design from the architect’s, uh, portfolio. Um, and that projects, uh, that building sold out in 48 hours without a sales center. So that, that was like a measurable ROI on that one. And it neighbored a pro, uh, [01:16:00] another offering that launched the exact same weekend that had a full sales center that didn’t sell out for a month.

[01:16:05] Ami: Very, very cool. Awesome. I see you have some other slides there. Do you?

[01:16:13] Greg: My job here is done as a

[01:16:15] Margherita: looper.

[01:16:18] Greg: I’m going to add that to my LinkedIn bio, you know? Makes a mean loop with a clicker.

[01:16:27] Margherita: Okay, I briefly touched on this earlier. This is, uh, Squalene. Um, this is the indigenous Canadian owned, uh, skincare brand that I worked on with Lee Joseph, who’s the ethnobotanist. Um, they’re located in Squamish. And this, this one is just an incredible example of, uh, Of like, put the computer away, put the Pinterest away, put Instagram away, and be quiet, and listen, and be very, very respectful, and just keep listening, and take a lot of [01:17:00] notes, and then, and then do your research, and ask a lot of questions, um, this is what their packaging and their brand looked like when they engaged us, um, and, They wanted, they had some pretty, um, tall goals.

[01:17:13] Margherita: They wanted to get into, like, luxury boutiques, um, and then they couldn’t get in with this packaging. So, um, this is only a fraction of the, of the SKU range. I think there’s, like, another 12 or more SKUs that we produced for them. Um, and this entire project was about, like, was deeply laced with, with respect.

[01:17:31] Margherita: So it, it was really about, like, how, How can I be a vessel for you? Like, if, if Lee Joseph was a designer, what would she design? Um, so I really, really, it was not about ego, and it was about stepping back, and it was about being kind of a tool, um, a platform, like a, so that she could create this brand in her vision, and in her likeness, and not in mine.

[01:17:53] Margherita: And, cause I obviously have like a white gaze, so I needed to kind of be, uh, like ultra sensitive to that. [01:18:00] Um, this woman Fundamentally, like, changed how I look at nature. Which has been pretty emotional. Like, so, like, I don’t look, like, I always love nature, right? Like, when I was, like, going on hikes and, like, spending time in it.

[01:18:13] Margherita: Um, but after you spend time with Lee Joseph, you hear the wind differently. You smell the ocean air differently on, like, a deep resonance. Um, you walk barefoot, if you can, on soil and in dirt. And, um, so, I think, like, it was just an incredible honour to work with an Indigenous, um, Human being and like scientists essentially and to just to like learn from their wisdom.

[01:18:42] Margherita: So

[01:18:43] Ami: beautiful One of the there’s so much every one of these case studies. I feel like we could just do a whole night on One of the challenges I imagine with that is building time Right, like you have to incorporate enough time to do that depth of [01:19:00] research You did the book in 30 days that sounds Maybe like something most people wouldn’t ask for.

[01:19:06] Ami: But like, now that you’re like, you’ve fully embraced this as part of your process and one of the differentiating parts of the, of the studio and the practice, um, how does, it’s similar to what Pam was asking, like scoping, right? Like, how do you even account for that before, you know, how much of that research is going to be involved, you know, how easy it is or how difficult it is, like, what does that look like for you?

[01:19:34] Margherita: Yeah, we have a crazy Excel spreadsheet at this point now. Like, we’ve been time tracking, data tracking all of our projects for about 10 years. Uh, no, a little bit longer. A little bit longer than that. 11, 12. Um, And so we can, we can see all the projects that were not profitable. And then we just like keep adding, you’re like, okay, yeah, add more time to that.

[01:19:53] Margherita: So it, it helps to do that because then you’re not guessing it’s the [01:20:00] kind of part that shifts is like every designer is different. So like we have to actually write historically who worked on that project and like where their strengths were as well, too, as like kind of a point of reference for it. Um, but yeah, data tracking kind of diarizing.

[01:20:13] Margherita: Each one of your projects really extensively allows you to be empirical with your planning instead of subjective because time is this fascinating construct, right? Like, I’ve talked to designers or contractors and be like, I’m spending so much time on this project. I’m like, really? How many hours have you spent on it?

[01:20:30] Margherita: And they’re like, I don’t know. And you’re like, oh, okay, well, I’m not sure how to have this conversation with you. Like, actually track your time and like, and do it by, What every task you’re doing and, and don’t, don’t make it a labor and, and don’t put any judgment around it. It’s not a big deal. You, it’s just like a, a diary.

[01:20:48] Margherita: And I got that from my dad. Like he’s, he’s worked on major projects his entire life, like building a bridge is a, is a pretty incredible responsibility and he’s always kept a journal. And, and he would tell me that, [01:21:00] he’s like, you know, someone would call me up and ask me a question, and he, and it would almost be like, he would be incriminated a little bit, and be like, oh, no problem, and he’d go back to his diary, and be like, on this date, I did this, this, this, and this, and this, um, so diarizing your efforts is, is just like a tool that you can use in the future, and so when we do our proposals, they actually go down to like, 71 cents, and so when you have a quote that says like, I don’t pick a number, like, you know, 40, 000, or 42, 689, and then like, you know, 31, it’s kind of hard to negotiate, because they’re like, you spent some time on this calculation, right?

[01:21:38] Margherita: And so, if you’re very precise with things, I think that it helps in that regard. It’s not always a perfect science, um, so sometimes we spend, you know, Because I’m not gonna be like, okay, we dedicated four hours for like this inspiration workshop, and I’m so I have to go now It’s four hours like I will never do that if the project needs six hours or if I need to wander in a library or whatnot [01:22:00] then I Usually just you just figure it out kind of thing.

[01:22:03] Margherita: So But sometimes you can kind of steal from other parts of the project too.

[01:22:07] Greg: And Marguerite if I may I think if I may jump in and what what you’re also not acknowledging is that A lot of the stuff in packaging and resourcing, you figured it out on your own. Like you did that early on in your career.

[01:22:19] Greg: Like, I’m just going to do this for you. And now when you ask about how do you bill for it? Like, she’s already figured it out. You know, the process. So it wasn’t like the client was spending this endless money, just chasing spinning wheels. You, you, you put the time in, in the beginning, invested that time, didn’t get paid for it.

[01:22:36] Greg: And now it’s paying off

[01:22:38] Margherita: in sweet

[01:22:38] Greg: Excel sheets. Well,

[01:22:39] Margherita: yes, yes. And no, because every time you change materiality,

[01:22:43] Ami: Of

[01:22:43] Greg: course.

[01:22:43] Margherita: You’re like a kindergarten kid all over again, right? And so like, you get, become an expert in milk glass and like tin lids, and then all of a sudden you’re like, okay, well, now I’m doing self, um.

[01:22:54] Margherita: Mycelium forms and you’re like, I don’t know anything about how mushrooms grow in a [01:23:00] form and how long that takes. And the supplier doesn’t even know what they’re doing because they’re so new. Um, so, or like we’ve been doing lots of, we do a ton of research, you know, try to get ahead of it. So like what’s algae doing and how we’re going to use algae for like packaging and it was like,

[01:23:13] Pamela: okay, that’s a long lead thing.

[01:23:14] Pamela: I don’t know when that’s happening. Have you ever thought of like vertical integration and trying to make a new substance?

[01:23:23] Margherita: I mean, when you live on a big plot of land, yes, it crosses your mind a lot. And my husband is, is just like one with the land. Like he, he is very, very good, um, with kind of agriculture and whatnot.

[01:23:35] Margherita: So it sometimes crosses my mind, but at the same time I’m like, uh, it was like, I know, I know too much.

[01:23:43] Ami: That’s really cool. Um, Greg. Uh, one of the things that, uh, You know, I was thinking about in prepping for this is that, you know, I don’t think people do any rebrands, big rebrands at like comfortable [01:24:00] times.

[01:24:00] Ami: Things aren’t generally easy during a rebrand. They’re usually a little bad. Um, even right. And no

[01:24:07] Greg: one’s like, Hey, life is awesome. Let’s do a rebrand. Like that never happens. Yeah.

[01:24:12] Ami: I wonder if you could walk us through the case study you’ve prepped and just show us a little bit about the challenges that came up or the complexity that you were dealing with and we’ll get into that.

[01:24:21] Greg: For sure, and I want to try to link a couple thoughts in here in this next one and back to this thing of again, investing time into something that you’re passionate about I think is so key. I’ve never shied away from jobs that didn’t pay me anything like Design Canada, the film didn’t pay me anything.

[01:24:36] Greg: It cost me money for six years and But, then, three months after the film came out, um, I was contacted by Metrolinx, and they’re, uh, the organization in Ontario that runs transit, and they came to us with a project about how do we unite half a billion yearly journeys, okay? So, I’m [01:25:00] from Toronto. And, uh, and when I went to high school, I took a bus, I took the streetcar, I took the subway, I am so intimately familiar with the public infrastructure in Ontario that this was, this felt like a project I was put on the earth to do.

[01:25:18] Greg: And so they called and they’re like, hey, we saw Design Canada. If you were to ever make another film in 20 years, we want a logo that would be in that film. And they’re telling me about this project about uniting the network. And I’m like, Oh yeah, like, let’s go. And then we get to the end of the talk, uh, end of this first conversation.

[01:25:36] Greg: They’re like, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we’re just looking for brand guidelines. I’m like, what? You’re just looking for brand guides. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we got the logo. Don’t worry. It’s already figured out. Oh, okay. I’m like, okay, let’s can, can I see it? They’re like, sure, sure. Sign in today, whatever. So they send it to me.

[01:25:51] Greg: And it just wasn’t there, man. Like it just wasn’t there. I’m not gonna say I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna pull it out, but it wasn’t there. And, and it was this project that was like a [01:26:00] dream project, but I said, no, I was like, Hey, thanks guys. You know what? Like, I think this is awesome. I wish you all the best.

[01:26:06] Greg: I just don’t think this is for us. And, uh, kind of walked away and then I got a, I got a call the day the RPs do. It’s like, what if the logo is back? Are you in? And I was I don’t know. I wasn’t even at work. I think I was in Stanley Park. I’m like, sure, but like, my RP’s gonna be some bullet notes in an email.

[01:26:22] Greg: Is that okay? They’re like, yeah, yeah, send it by four. I’m like, okay. And then we ended up winning it. So, um, this is kind of what we inherited. So this was in, uh, 2018. They reached out. This started in 2019. So this is also five years older. These were all the transit operators that they owned. And if you live outside of Toronto, if you live in Vaughn, in New York, region anywhere, it’s very possible you will interact with four or five of these brands just on in one root home.

[01:26:48] Greg: None of the networks kinda work together. So their plan was to bring it all together. So how do you. How do you do that? And where to start? And it’s funny because this one, every project’s a little different, but I had this idea in the [01:27:00] first 30 seconds of literally talking to the client. I’m like, I already, I already kind of knew.

[01:27:04] Greg: Uh, where I thought it would go and, um, and so this is a huge deck that’s just been distilled down into 11 slides, but, uh, it was just so simple for me, is that, so really what the brief was, was these key things. I can’t really read this, so I gotta turn around and look at you guys here. So, um, we had to immediately identify transit, you know, we needed it to immediately clearly communicate, it had to be mode neutral, you know, there’s speed limits.

[01:27:27] Greg: Planes, trains, buses, no, no boats in Ontario, maybe eventually. Um, it had to be brand neutral, like look at all those brands we just came from, like what do you do, you can’t pick one. Um, it had to be future proof, so what happens if this, if this network continues to grow, how does that work? It had to unite all these operators, like create a consensus, dear God.

[01:27:47] Greg: And then lastly, it had to be international, like Toronto is an international city. Um, how do we communicate to people that might not even know English that are visiting or had just moved to Canada? So, again, [01:28:00] back into the transit operators that we’re working with at the time, and this list has grown since, but, you know, one immediate thing was the, there’s this one sort of shared word, right?

[01:28:10] Greg: Transit, obviously, and what’s really interesting about that word transit is that is that internationally, it is so close, right? Like, in so many different languages, it is really close. So it, there is like, a precedent, uh, kind of starting to build. And during the research phase, um, came across this quote by Lance Wyman, who designed, uh, he’s a legendary designer, but he did the Washington metro system.

[01:28:33] Greg: And he said, don’t overlook the obvious. The obvious can be powerful because it is familiar. So back to a little bit about what you were talking about with um, What was it? Um, novelty and familiarity? Yeah, yeah. So this was it, man. It was like an O. This literally came to me in 30 seconds. An O. Ontario. With a T.

[01:28:53] Greg: And it’s T& O, that’s it. One single thickness, it says T& O, it’s transit, it’s Ontario, [01:29:00] you put it in black and white, see I’m a black and white guy here, and then uh, these sketches are literally 8, 9 years old, you put it on here, we had to show this, like, hey, don’t worry, transit operators, your logos can stay for a little while, just tuck them in little circles, you know, um, Even at the time they, they have this app called trip links and it’s like, perfect.

[01:29:18] Greg: Just make it a T put the T in the app icon. I don’t even know what phone this is. This mock up so old now, but, um, anyway, whatever. And, and really this was an opportunity to like lean in. So we’re in corporate branding. Sometimes it’s like, Oh man, we can’t do that. Probably in a presentation. I just have a couple of days ago.

[01:29:35] Greg: Someone’s like, you can’t present that. I’m going to Google right now and find something else like that. But. This was an instance of us leaning in. It’s like, no, it’s the right answer because everyone else is doing it. Um, So, this, this whole project was supposed to have rolled out with the LRT line in Toronto that’s been delayed for like four years, people hate it, the public like literally hates this thing right [01:30:00] now, um, but I, I got to see it in person for the first time four weeks ago, uh, which is kind of cool, so all the stations are still being built, so anyway, it’s also about to come out in this like highly controversial time, uh, so we’ll see what the public thinks, But, um, we’re really stoked about its potential of being mode neutral, uh, speaking to the region and just kind of built, built to last.

[01:30:20] Greg: And it’s so inherently optimistic. Let me just rewind one thing from Toronto, the Toronto transit operator logo is like this one right here. Like I just hate it so much. Is it like a fire truck or something? I don’t know. How do you even know that that’s a subway? It makes no frigging sense. Um, so anyway, so back to where I was right here, check this out.

[01:30:40] Greg: And then, uh, very lastly. Um, Eric Speakerman, another designer, actually did a blog post about this symbol. I think, I think, well, I think Metrolinx was like freaking out, like, oh my god, people, like, we’re just going to give them a T in a circle. Um, so anyway, I, I, I don’t know how this came about, but I found this.

[01:30:55] Greg: Um, so using the big T in a circle is an obvious and thus [01:31:00] brilliant solution as a symbol for this one coordinated service. T for transit, T for together, T for Toronto. It has immediately authority and visitors will presume that it’s been there forever. The tea is visible from far away and easy to reproduce in all sizes for media.

[01:31:17] Greg: I just had to twist the heck out of my neck out there, but anyway, so yeah, yeah, so that’s a quick little story of Yeah, and like we only presented one like one option like this was it like to your point There’s a bigger research part component But it’s like how do you just drive it to like one single thing and then just defend it like a doctoral thesis?

[01:31:38] Greg: That’s awesome.

[01:31:38] Ami: That’s such a perfect example

[01:31:43] Margherita: Eric Speakerman. I mean, we didn’t even,

[01:31:45] Greg: I didn’t do anything. Like, I didn’t,

[01:31:46] Margherita: amazing. Like he’s like the God of typography. So that’s incredible. Yeah.

[01:31:52] Ami: Super, super cool. Um, something I’m thinking about, you know, I, when I, when I talk to designers, any [01:32:00] creative, really, like we, we care so much about the projects that something like the consensus building on this, Could like destroy some of us.

[01:32:11] Ami: You know what I mean? Like, so as a professional, where do the boundaries start and end for you for building consensus when you’ve got this and now more people who are mostly like have opinions, right? So like, where, where do you draw your professional lines on that?

[01:32:28] Greg: Man, if you want my secrets, I’m going to need another beer from over there.

[01:32:31] Greg: A holler. I’m just kidding. Anybody need drinks? Go get it. Send one over. I’m just kidding. It’s half joking, but I would totally take one if it comes. Um, Okay, so it’s a great question, and I kind of distill, um, how do you build consensus is what I take away with many stakeholders, different objectives, and, um, conflict of interest at times too, right?

[01:32:53] Greg: So where do you, where do you kind of build, oh yeah, here we go. Um, so I kind of think it’s, um, these three, What’s that? [01:33:00] One water too? Double? Double fisting here? Is that what’s going down? I can do it. It’s going to be my first time. Um, okay, so really I think consensus building comes down to three key things.

[01:33:11] Greg: Number one is preparation. By the time I get in that room, I am so prepared. I have crossed every T, dotted every I, you know, we just finished working, um, with a water treatment company. They have this like game changing technology that can revolutionize wastewater. I spent three months with their engineers understanding the technology before I’ve even presented anything.

[01:33:34] Greg: So when I walk into the room, I can articulate the business. I can help define a mission and vision statement. I know all about their competitors. You know, it’s like back to references and mood boards. Like I, I don’t look at fucking shit. Like I’ll look at, I’ll look at competitors and what’s happening in their industry.

[01:33:49] Greg: I don’t surf like cool Pinterest things except for a design candle logo archives. Shout out to Mark. Um, he’s in the audience. That’s a great, great website. There he is over there. Um, [01:34:00] so number one, it’s preparation. So knowing when I’m in the room, like I’m ready and I’m confident in what I’m going to present number two is like a journey.

[01:34:08] Greg: Of bringing people along. Like, no one wants you to just drop a logo on the end and be like boom, there it is, this is your logo. You gotta bring them along and you gotta tease things out of them and put them in the journey. Uh, whether it’s right or wrong, sometimes it’s fudge. It’s like the sketch I was asking you.

[01:34:25] Greg: Like, do you guys actually sketch or do you go to the end and then come back, right? So bringing people along.

[01:34:30] Margherita: I’ve done that. You’ve

[01:34:31] Greg: done

[01:34:31] Margherita: that?

[01:34:31] Greg: Yeah. And then the third most important thing out of all of it, Is you have to learn how to take a punch. Cause you’re gonna get knocked in the face. Things might be going so well, but inevitably.

[01:34:45] Greg: I, this happened to me two days ago. I have, uh, been working on a project for six months. We started this project a year ago. And we’re high stakes presentation right at the end. And, uh, finish, finish the whole deck, present it. [01:35:00] The first, the first comment up is, is actually probably, uh, it was, it was epic.

[01:35:04] Greg: Like this guy summarized my one hour presentation in two sentences that if I ever wrote a memoir, this thing’s going in there. I can’t talk about it right now, but then question number two. So the second one, so after the first one, I’m like, fuck, this is going to be easy. Like I’m just going to sit back, have a beer, you know, but then the second question just went the opposite direction.

[01:35:25] Greg: Yeah. And this guy has grabbed the mic and is on a tangent. And I’m just watching this go and we probably all had those moments. It’s like, fuck, I’m about to lose the room. Like I’m about to lose the room here and this guy’s off on a tangent. I’m just going to abstract this. Let’s say I’m presenting a logo.

[01:35:44] Greg: It’s a, it’s a yellow triangle, let’s say, right? Sunshine yellow, you know, it’s bright. It’s youthful. This guy gets up. It’s like. I hate the yellow. You know what I mean? It’s like something, something kind of trivial, like you can change color, but again, it has like game changing, uh, [01:36:00] consequences if you don’t get this on, in the line, right?

[01:36:02] Greg: So this guy’s just going on the yellow. It can’t be yellow. It’s gotta be, it’s gotta be, Mustard yellow to connect to or whatever the heck whatever his opinion. It almost doesn’t matter So what do you do in that moment? Right you either you can fight it You can stand there and fight him, but then it’s like oh man, that’s not gonna de escalate the situation And this is common number two.

[01:36:23] Greg: How do I move on and a little trick that I’ve learned in these situations It’s simply just repeat back to him what he just told you That’s it It’s like, hey, Dave, Dave from accounting, what, right, like he could even be an accountant. He doesn’t know anything about color. Dave from accounting. It sounds like you have some concerns about our bright yellow.

[01:36:50] Greg: It sounds like you want to be more connected to Colonel Mustards, whatever. I don’t know. You know what I mean? But you just repeat that back to him and make him feel heard. [01:37:00] And that might not shut him up. He’s probably he actually just gave me another like minute But maybe I saved that from being five minutes if you know what I’m saying, so that’s just like a little trick I that I do sometimes in those moments of like oh man This is I get in a way of just repeat it back to him like one final thing on that in design Canada I kept getting this bit of feedback that Hey, there’s no women in your film.

[01:37:22] Greg: And it’s like, man, I know I’m making a film about 1960s, like Canada design. And I kept getting this over and over. And then I thought, you know what? I’m just gonna put the critic in my film. So I put the critic in the film, right? The start six minutes in design Canada. It’s like, we talk about it as we talk about like immigration.

[01:37:38] Greg: We talk about race. We talk about women in the workplace. And then no one, no one ever said anything to me about it again. Right? So anyway, that’s a trick. Kindness, repeat back to them if you don’t know what to do, and always think about the critics and work them into your presentation.

[01:37:54] Margherita: That thing also works on three year olds.

[01:37:58] Greg: I know, yeah, yeah. 100%. [01:38:00] It’s actually an FBI negotiation. Did you read that? Did you read that book? Never split the difference? Oh my god, I love

[01:38:06] Margherita: that book! Well,

[01:38:08] Greg: that’s where, so, See now I’m like awkward in between you for other reasons. You guys are best friends. You got that 71 whatever invoicing from that, right?

[01:38:17] Greg: Because it just looks like, yeah, if you’re I knew I had heard that

[01:38:20] Margherita: somewhere.

[01:38:22] Greg: Yeah, that’s the same. It’s the same book.

[01:38:23] Margherita: I

[01:38:23] Pamela: have read that book like three times. I haven’t seen her in 15 years,

[01:38:27] Greg: but it seems like we’re pretty connected. Never Split

[01:38:29] Pamela: the Difference is the book. It’s amazing. It’s game changer.

[01:38:31] Pamela: Written by a FBI negotiator. How to Persuade Anyone.

[01:38:35] Margherita: Very, very entertaining. It’ll, it’ll help you with clients. But also parenting books will help you with clients and employees. I, the second I had my, my, my now seven year old. Oh, like what’s happening? My, my now seven year old, when, when she started speaking and, uh, Negotiating with me.

[01:38:59] Margherita: I just started [01:39:00] deep diving in like child psychology and all of a sudden I was like, I’m gonna use this on my clients and my employees and husband And everywhere I go and it’s kind of a game changer. Yeah, because it’s like Do it simply actually like be it’s quite simple. Actually the winning people over you can you can get there And they feel

[01:39:21] Greg: heard and they’ve voiced their opinions and you know what that opens the door I can go back to Jim from accounting.

[01:39:27] Greg: Hey, man, like really heard your feedback. Let me show you how we’ve addressed it We try it to whatever maybe we arrive in the same place, but it kind of just de escalates some of those big Political situation. I think

[01:39:38] Margherita: why this is so important is because a lot of designers egos kick in

[01:39:42] Greg: Mm-Hmm,

[01:39:42] Margherita: when their work that they’ve spent hours and hours and hours on, they really believe in and they know it’s the right decision.

[01:39:47] Margherita: They’re, they’re, when it gets, when that work and that effort and that passion gets questioned, that that like lizard brain kicks into full, full gear and your ego is just roaring and you wanna defend. [01:40:00] Defending is the worst thing you could do in those moments. You need to be the inquirer, you need to be the observer, you need to go to that beginner’s mind, and you need to, like, listen, repeat, ask questions.

[01:40:11] Margherita: Give them space. Do not argue with them. You know, I just, I had the, I came up yesterday in a meeting, and, and, uh, we talked about it afterwards with the team, and the team was like, I kinda didn’t know if I should have said this, and, and, and she’s like, you were quiet, and I was like, yeah, I was quiet.

[01:40:25] Margherita: Sometimes an awkward pause really works. I wanted her to have some time. I wanted the client to have some time to like, think through and also that, that we respect. Maybe she doesn’t like it. It’s not the end of the world, right? So you, and you just never know. They don’t like it today and they might love it tomorrow.

[01:40:41] Margherita: So just, shh.

[01:40:43] Greg: And so we’re from the same kind of vintage triple five soul going way back that took me back, but I would say

[01:40:54] Greg: But what I was like earlier in my career I would have fought I would have fought to the death like I would have like [01:41:00] I I still sometimes die for ideas I’m always willing to die for a good idea but now I’m like maybe a little more chilled out of like Understanding there are multiple ways to do it And back to that main point that we both gravitated to, when there is pushback in that room, I see that as an opportunity to lean in and figure out, like, what that is, because if you can make that person a believer, Then like you’re, you’re on the road to success, you know,

[01:41:26] Margherita: but also they might know something you don’t know.

[01:41:29] Greg: Exactly.

[01:41:30] Margherita: And so if you get defensive right away, you’re listening, missing out on opportunity to like learn that one nugget that you could never have uncovered in your research because you didn’t work at the company for 50 years. And so I always say to our clients, right? When we started the beginning, I go, you know, I couldn’t, I will do my absolute best to know everything about your industry and your business, but I will never assume that I know more than you.

[01:41:50] Margherita: And so you’re the expert and I just like hope to learn from you. And that gives them space to share with me and like confide in me and be comfortable with me because I think some clients are like, [01:42:00] well, I’ve hired them and are paying all this money. So like I I’ll give them space and I’ll let them do their thing and I don’t want to impose on them or like influence their decision.

[01:42:07] Margherita: But, uh, they have, they have knowledge that, that you can access if you’re, if your ego can take a back seat.

[01:42:14] Ami: I love it. Um, What really stood out in that project was the willingness again to set ego aside and not be like I’m going to Impart my fingerprint on this project. It was like, okay, the answer is in what other people have done and that kind of Brings me to thinking about trends.

[01:42:33] Ami: I came across this this kind of tweet the other day and it’s it’s it’s very true Right like over time all these big known brands Gravitate towards pretty much the same look and um, it got me thinking about as, as leaders and designers, how are you, what’s your perspective on trends? When do you know when you want to lean in?

[01:42:58] Ami: Be like, this is something that we [01:43:00] should, uh, should, should lean into to have a modern view of whatever this brand needs. And when are you like, this is a trend and therefore 10 foot pole. Anybody?

[01:43:13] Pamela: Well, I think it just goes back to everything you’ve been saying. Like, like all the research, I mean, your design decisions should be made on the research, not like what’s trendy.

[01:43:23] Pamela: Like, potentially, what’s trendy could intersect with your research, potentially. But, most likely, it’s not going to do that. Um, there is room for trend in design, but it’s for, you know, I think things that are more transient, like magazine design, maybe fashion, maybe things that don’t have like the staying power is like a million dollar brand, like you’re going to want something different for that.

[01:43:50] Pamela: And I mean, I don’t think there’s something inherently wrong with a Sans Serif logo, and that’s not your entire brand. Your logo isn’t your entire brand. There’s many [01:44:00] distinct brand assets, other assets. So I wouldn’t immediately shit on doing this, but I do think we will be swinging back. I mean, like, yeah, cyclical, like going towards craft and not.

[01:44:14] Pamela: So I don’t know. What do you think?

[01:44:17] Greg: Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t do trends. I still have the same Photoshop skills since like 2001. I haven’t really evolved. So I don’t know. There’s all these cool, tricky things. I just don’t. I don’t go there. I, you know, I look at some of these and I’m like, yeah, this looks great, you know.

[01:44:31] Greg: Does, does Google that becomes Alphabet ever become who they are now with this like weird squiggly original logo? Like, probably not, you know. It’s like, it’s cool, whatever, but are they like a billion, hundred billion dollar juggernaut, whatever they are now? I, I don’t know. Um, yeah. Margarita, how do you feel about trends?

[01:44:49] Margherita: It’s, it’s such a big subject having like worked in fashion and, you know, I think I’ve been tracking trends for, like, 20 years, uh, that I absolutely agree that there’s, like, a time and a place for it, [01:45:00] so when you are working on seasonal campaigns, like, maybe in, maybe in, like, the social media efforts of a brand, you would want to, like, feel relevant, and that’s kind of what, like, trends are saying, they’re like, this is the moment, everyone’s doing it, I think, like, My big concern with trends is like how quickly it’s happening right now, um, so it’s, that makes it extra risky for a brand to be using it in anything, and so you’re, like, when I started off, you would, you’d build a brand and it, you’d be like, you’d tell your client this should last like 10, 15, maybe 20 years, if longer, if you’re lucky, you know, and now you’re seeing rebrands happening like every three years, and that’s, that’s really scary for me, and it’s just like, you know, I remember back at, like, when I first started kind of getting into fashion, if you went to Europe and you bought shoes, You knew that they weren’t gonna be, those shoes wouldn’t be, like, cool in North America for, like, another three years.

[01:45:44] Margherita: So you had, like, three years to look, like, you’re cooler than everybody else. And then you still had, like, another couple years to wear these shoes. But now it’s, like, something launches in Paris. It’s, like, everybody already knows I’m, like, And it’s already all over North America. So, the timing of things is just so rapid and so quick, and that, that directly [01:46:00] connects to overconsumption and waste, and a big, massive global climate issue.

[01:46:04] Margherita: So, trends freak me out a little bit, like I kind of want to reject them in that regard. Um, but I think like if you always get clear on your like, your reason to be, like, reason for being, your why, and your values, then you go, Was that trend relevant to like our why and our reason for being? And then you’re like, no, it’s just a trend.

[01:46:21] Margherita: Okay, maybe it plays up in our photo shoot. You know, and that sort of thing, so. Or maybe the models are wearing those outfits in the photoshoot, or whatever it is. Like I think there’s like, A way to have like that relevant flavor, But not, um, out, kind of outplay yourself so quickly. You need to look at like logos as vessels for meaning, right?

[01:46:39] Margherita: Like they, you’re putting meaning into this typeface by all these other actions you’re doing, So are you going to be putting the meaning in your logo that your, you know, That you’re just like into trends and you’re just flipping them out like what it will like be really conscientious about all your decisions

[01:46:55] Ami: Love it Margarita one of the things you said that at the top when you’re doing your [01:47:00] intro is that you know 45 awards in the last six years I’d love to get your perspective on awards I know I’ve met a lot of creatives that you know secretly or overtly really wish they could win awards for their work It’s it’s a kind of a milestone moment in their careers You Um, what is your perspective on awards, um, and, and, uh, how do you think this is impacting your business?

[01:47:23] Ami: You’re obviously taking it seriously.

[01:47:26] Margherita: Um, for, for me, I think awards are kind of like serving, I guess, like three functions. One is, um, When I started out, like I mentioned, there wasn’t a lot of female designers, there wasn’t female, like, there’s a few female designers in our design history class and design school, but they’re typically the wife of a famous designer.

[01:47:45] Margherita: Um, I had one female teacher in school and she taught art history. Um, so there wasn’t female representation. I think like, back in the day, characters, you guys remember characters, the agency? Maria Kennedy was this creative director that wore red stilettos and I [01:48:00] was like, oh my god, a woman. And it was, like, it was crazy.

[01:48:03] Margherita: It helped me to like, see this, this female figure, and so for me, I’m almost like, doing it for my daughter, if that makes sense. I’m like, doing it for other, other designers coming up. It’s like, or not, I’m not doing it, but like, I’m feeling the value of it. That it’s going to carve out space. Because if you still look at it, there’s still a huge imbalance.

[01:48:21] Margherita: There’s not a lot of females winning, female owned agencies or female designers winning awards. Um, so, yeah. You go to these award shows and you’re like, you’re like, it’s the wives that are there, and you’re like, you’re standing next to the men that win it, so for, for me it’s like super important that female designers get more representation, um, I was recently asked to be the juror for the Penta Awards, which is a global, um, packaging, uh, award contest that’s based out of London, and I’m the first Canadian female juror, and the, the awards show’s been going on for decades, um, so, it, it’s, it’s, These are the moments that, like, okay, [01:49:00] Little, like, Little Margarita who started her agency when she was, like, 23, you’re like, I see you, you know, like, here you are.

[01:49:07] Margherita: So that one, that one’s like a big one. The other thing is for, like, there was no sustainability categories when we won, like, the first, like, 30, I don’t know, 40 awards. So, Our work winning that, like, all those projects should have been in the sustainability category, and they weren’t because it didn’t exist.

[01:49:26] Margherita: And the last two we won, like, the Dyaline Award was in sustainability and whatnot. Um, and it’s like we kind of pushed that category into being. And so if you can put, like, if you can kind of keep just, like, um, getting attention for something you’re doing that means something to you, then, like, changes start to happen and then bigger companies, um, Like, a lot of the awards they’re winning are also being won by, like, LVMH and Pepsi and Coca Cola, but for plastic projects, right?

[01:49:54] Margherita: And so, now they’re seeing that these, like, small companies are doing better than them. I [01:50:00] hope to, I hope maybe I, like, come across on, like, the conversation in their mind of, like, why aren’t we doing it if, like, a little tiny agency in, in Vancouver, Canada, where’s Vancouver, you know, like, um, is doing it, then maybe they can with their billions of dollars?

[01:50:12] Margherita: So I don’t know, maybe that’s my contribution, but yeah, it helps, helps. It helps. I think it helps.

[01:50:18] Ami: Yeah. Awesome. Um, Pam, you recently did a talk for a ladies wine and design on, on creatives facing burnout. I think the word has come up a handful of times, even just tonight. Um, and I imagine that as a parent, like burnout sucks for everybody, but when you become a parent It adds a different flavor because A, you’re more susceptible to it, and B, you really, the repercussions are bigger.

[01:50:50] Ami: Um, and then also as a leader, right? You’re leading teams and, and, and have to guide them through burnout and, and, um, what is, yeah, what are some [01:51:00] takeaways that, that you shared in that talk or, or have been thinking about since, um, for, for creatives facing burnout?

[01:51:06] Pamela: Yeah, I mean, it’s gonna happen. Like, I think anyone who is ambitious is going to get burnt out at some point.

[01:51:15] Pamela: And it’s almost futile to tell that person, just say no more. Like, it’s so hard to say no. You know. You know. Like, when you have a fire in you to work and make the thing, like, it’s really hard to say no. But I found that reframing that as Being productive helps. Like, rest is productive. Taking a break is productive.

[01:51:43] Pamela: Saying no is productive because you do better work when you’re rested. You’re not going to get burnt out. You’re going to come up with better ideas. I mean, there’s a reason why it’s like a cliche that you come up with an idea in the shower. It’s because you’re like chilled out and relaxed. So, [01:52:00] if you reframe the rest as the rest.

[01:52:02] Pamela: If that’s productivity and a necessary part of your creative journey, then maybe you’ll be able to say no and just feel okay about it. At least that’s what’s helped me. Plus I just like literally cannot do more work because I have children now and that’s my forced break, which is actually wonderful.

[01:52:24] Ami: Anything else to add from the other two?

[01:52:27] Margherita: Oh, this is like a whole other talk. Um, you know, it made me think of, uh, the words by Deepak Chopra who said, who writes, like, Do less, accomplish more. Do nothing, accomplish everything. Um, and, I thought that was like, like batshit crazy. The first time I heard it, I was like, like, no, I need to like, you should see my to do list of all of like, we know how to break down a project and reverse engineer it and put it back together.

[01:52:52] Margherita: And, um, but there, there’s a point where your body will start calling the shots [01:53:00] and, and you could be like me and you don’t listen. Like I didn’t take any time off after I had my, um, ovarian tumors surgeries. I, I think I was told to have bed rest for, like, for four weeks. Like, I, you couldn’t sit up because of the incision.

[01:53:14] Margherita: It was, like, very big, big incision and cut through all the muscles and everything. Um, I think I was working, like, uh, like three days later. Yep. So, I, you know, I didn’t take time off when my mom passed away. I didn’t, like, I didn’t take a lot of time, I haven’t taken a lot of time off. I didn’t take mat leave.

[01:53:29] Margherita: So, like, I am, I have, Moved to the to the forest and I have been sleeping nine hours a night And I have been like hitting the reset button because my body Said no a long time ago, and I didn’t listen and then I started getting insomnia and why not So it’s just not worth it. Like I I’m kind of like the future don’t do it Yeah, like it’s just not it’s not good and and so what’s interesting about Deepak Chopra’s words of like do less accomplish more is Is It’s really like [01:54:00] Buddhist thinking in terms of like, if you can still the mind, if you can quiet the mind, then you can access some incredible ideas.

[01:54:07] Margherita: Um, and there’s a great book on this like, Stealing Fire, about like, how to kind of access, um, all these kind of different waves of like, divine brilliance, you know, and like, some people take mushrooms, and some people like, do crazy like, Hella skiing and some people like free dive until they almost die and some people go to like Burning Man Or you can meditate or like there’s like a whole like plethora of ways to like get that a crazy amazing idea Without working tons and tons of hours.

[01:54:38] Margherita: So that’s kind of the headspace. I’ve been in the last two years It’s like how can I how can I be more brilliant by doing less and it’s kind of in this like Thesis that I’ve been trying to prove to myself by like reading book after book after book and like testing it out on my Team and integrating in projects and it’s working.

[01:54:53] Margherita: It’s like kind of amazing I work less than I ever have and our ideas are bigger and brighter and better and the work is is like [01:55:00] like I think we have like 11 projects right now between like a really small team and Everything’s just like firing and going and get quick approvals and like launching. So do less accomplish more It’s not my words as deepak Chopra, but

[01:55:14] Greg: I want to answer and say I don’t get creative burnout, but then I see my wife over there and I know she would have a different story.

[01:55:23] Greg: So I echo everything you guys are saying, you know, which is about finding the reset. Like for me, it’s running. Like I, I solve most of my hardest creative challenges. Like Running not on a computer. So I think it’s disconnecting that that’s the one for me that connects So I think doing the opposite and physically putting myself where I have to think about other things Actually really gives me focus and clarity at the same time

[01:55:46] Ami: I think one of the interesting things about like our line of work and the type of clients most people in this room might interact with is like there’s a lot of pressure and you want to show up as like the You got your shit together.

[01:55:59] Ami: You [01:56:00] did the thing on time and the team worked really well together. But there’s a whole bunch of deadlines and things that happen that are literally just people picking a number out of the air, right? Like, most of the projects, we’re not like solving world hunger. This is a rebrand project or a design thing.

[01:56:16] Ami: It’s like a small part of a bigger thing. And, uh, recognizing and giving yourself permission. Either as an individual or as a leader to point out that like, okay, we want to like meet our commitments, but also there are times where you can just be like, we can move this back and there are very few repercussions and a lot of upside too, right?

[01:56:36] Ami: So I think, I think that’s, you know, something I’m personally trying to, trying to learn in my agency. Um, what I’d like to do as we kind of transition out and into the social here, is some, some rapid fire questions. All right. So I’m going to ask some questions. Um, and, and you get to, you know, just, just drop, you know, 30 seconds.

[01:56:59] Ami: Um, first [01:57:00] thing that comes to mind, uh, to kick this off. Um, so we’ll go, you know, one, two, three, one, two, three. Um, yeah, Pam, uh, your favorite way to connect with new creative talent. The context for this is I’m guessing about half the people in this room are here because they just like. Just want to meet you and work with you guys, you know what I mean?

[01:57:20] Ami: And so Yeah, what is the way for you to find creative talent in 2024?

[01:57:29] Pamela: Yeah, I usually do leave myself open to like coffee chats or like portfolio reviews for anyone It’s not like all the time, but definitely at least once or twice a month. I will sit down with someone that that wants to So I’m pretty open and I don’t know keep my eyes peeled out there come to events like this

[01:57:53] Greg: beautiful Greg creative pulse obviously follow CPY VR [01:58:00] No, I don’t know.

[01:58:02] Greg: Um, I don’t know, just meeting people, man. Just life. I don’t know. Life just happens. I don’t seek anything. I’m kind of calm. You know, just live connections, people, so, yeah, it’s hard, I don’t, I don’t follow websites, I don’t follow trends, I don’t follow social accounts, so it’s, um, a lot of collaborators that I’ve worked with that I’ve worked with for decades, too, so.

[01:58:24] Greg: Think of one in

[01:58:25] Ami: the last year, well, I’m breaking my 30 second rule, uh, think of one in the last year that you didn’t work with before, how’d you find that person?

[01:58:33] Greg: Someone in the last year I haven’t worked with? I don’t know if I have one, actually. Um, we have web developers, but that would just be from, um, the quality of their work, I would say.

[01:58:45] Greg: So, the quality of someone’s work will attract me to it. Um, not, not like bombarding my, my inbox with like, uh, resumes or something like that.

[01:58:53] Ami: Fair.

[01:58:55] Margherita: I find a lot of, uh, connections on Instagram. It’s like, whether it’s people reaching out, out to us, or [01:59:00] I, if I see somebody’s work, and I don’t like, I don’t like to have an agenda, but if I like, I see someone’s work that I like, I just like, reach out and, and, and be honest with my, my grace, and I just like, say, I love your work, or I love this, or whatever, and just, and build a connection and a relationship.

[01:59:13] Margherita: Um, for example, about a year and a half ago, this happened with a particular female artist, and I think we just had commonalities. She’s a creative, she’s a mother, um, we just like, started kind of fanning on each other, and A couple years have passed, and then a project came up, and I was like, I think you’re perfect for it, can I pitch you, and, and the client loves her, and actually went to school with her, like there’s all these incredible synchronicities, so I would have to say, like, that’s probably one of my favorite things about Instagram, is just like, the ability to connect with creatives that I probably wouldn’t otherwise meet, especially living remotely, um, I, we also get a lot of people emailing us, but, um, It, it kind of, you forget about it.

[01:59:49] Margherita: So it’s like, I think almost Instagram’s a bit easier ’cause it’s like visual for me and like I, my inbox, like, I get like a couple hundred a day so the, it gets buried pretty quickly. Um, so it’s, it’s, and it’s so [02:00:00] formulaic. It’s so, it’s so, so, well it’s, it’s transactional, right? It, it’s like, I,

[02:00:05] Greg: I don’t feel anything like, again, like I don’t, I don’t think I get as many as you do, but, um, so often I don’t even feel the written for me.

[02:00:12] Greg: It’s like, dude, you didn’t spell my name right, or like you forgot an R or something. Everyone gets my name wrong. There’s that, and so I don’t know.

[02:00:20] Pamela: If it’s formulaic, I’m not responding. It is,

[02:00:21] Greg: you know what? And, and, so in, when we started our careers, like, it worked. Like, you could email people and get responses now, right?

[02:00:27] Greg: A hundred percent, yeah. And like, I don’t know, I don’t know what the new way forward is now to get attention, but it’s definitely not. Emails with resumes.

[02:00:36] Ami: Yeah, I get

[02:00:36] Greg: emails anyway. Yeah, shit. He must yeah that are like three paragraphs long. He’s like, dude I’m not

[02:00:41] Margherita: well also like getting asked for things in the middle of a busy day You’re like it just kind of sucks to be honest Like I get people emailing hey, I like really want to learn it from you and I’m like, I have no nothing left Like I just what like can you offer me cake or something?

[02:00:55] Margherita: Like I just I don’t like I’m not a teacher You know, it’s not a charity right [02:01:00] now. And who are you and like, you know,

[02:01:01] Ami: yeah, that’s something I mean I just wish people asked, like, could think of their requests or ask better questions when they’re getting in touch because that’s like everything. It’s like, you ask the right question and I’m, I’m 100 percent there for it.

[02:01:14] Ami: Exactly. But, like, Like, flatter

[02:01:16] Margherita: me or something. Like, I love compliments.

[02:01:18] Pamela: Frankly, you have to start every email in, like, with flattery or else why would I respond?

[02:01:25] Ami: Alright. Um, my next rapid fire, um, one design pet peeve you would love to see abolished.

[02:01:35] Pamela: I mean, I’m just, this is kind of, it’s client side. But, um, I, I do not like multiple tiers of approvals.

[02:01:42] Pamela: That is the worst.

[02:01:46] Greg: I don’t know, man. I, uh, I love the job. I love the process. I don’t give a shit about awards. I don’t give a shit. Like, it’s fun to chase of getting the project. I just love the minutia. I love all the things that no [02:02:00] one sees to make design great. That’s what I lean into. So, I don’t know, I don’t even want to say get rid of trends because all the people that do trendy design give me an opportunity to do what we do, so, I’m all good man, everyone just like follow their, keep following the passion and I don’t know, there’s nothing I would necessarily abolish, um, but I hate working at web now cause you gotta do desktop, mobile, tablet, that shit sucks.

[02:02:23] Greg: Oh, too many deliverables. There’s too many, oh my god, that, that, but I’m not changing that, so, margarita, maybe we got something more practical.

[02:02:31] Margherita: Biggest pet peeve is, is being in design is when people are just knocking each other off. Like, it just makes me super irritated. We were in south of France, uh, a year and a half ago.

[02:02:43] Margherita: And just, it was like the tail end of a trip, like a work trip. We’d already done, uh, trade show research, and we went to a big gala, etc. And then we were just doing a couple days of just like fun walking around, uh, Cannes. And And all of a sudden we see, like, an exact [02:03:00] replica of La Glace, our ice cream, uh, project.

[02:03:03] Margherita: And so, like, it was the name La Glace, it was the logo, it was the same color palette. And I was like, what? Like, it’s almost shocking, like, we’re, like, blinking and being like, can’t be, like, how is this happening? Did you confront

[02:03:14] Pamela: them?

[02:03:15] Margherita: Uh. Yeah. I was kind of at like a, dealing with a lot of other things at the time, so we kind of pushed it to the client.

[02:03:20] Margherita: We were like, are you, are you gonna deal with that? And then I, I, like, I kind of like, um, romanticized, like, ruining them on social media, and all this. But I’m just like, too nice. Like, I would, I don’t want to, but then I’m like, but you were mean to me. Um, another time that happened was in Shanghai, and I’ll never forget this day, because like, on the weather app, it, it had like skull and crossbows.

[02:03:41] Margherita: It was like, Don’t go outside. It’s like toxic air School was cancelled. It was like it was low visibility, but we were there in Shanghai So I was like we’re going outside We’re gonna like tourists and we were walking through the French concession and I couldn’t even see my colleague in front of me She’s like two steps out of me.

[02:03:56] Margherita: I couldn’t even see her because the visibility So we had our kind of heads heads down trying not to breathe this [02:04:00] air and I look to the left and I’m like It’s like photo shoot we did what’s it doing in there? And so we go into this like hole in the wall nail salon and All these photos that we had done, art directed for a photo shoot were like blown up and huge on the wall and the brochure was like all of our photos and I was like, Can I talk to the manager here?

[02:04:19] Margherita: And uh, they like didn’t speak any English and I was like, I need to talk to the owner like now and I was like starting to lose my mind. I’m like, the Italian in me can like, Like boil the blood like pretty quickly. My husband calls me the Italian rattlesnake. You’re like, I’m calm and then you don’t see it coming and I will like snap and This was one of those like breaking points.

[02:04:40] Margherita: And so I went to the neighbor where they were speaking they spoke English and I asked them if they knew the owner and she’s like, yeah, I know the phone number so I she picks up the phone she calls her and I’m talking to her and I tell her like you’re using all our work and She’s like girl. This is China.

[02:04:56] Margherita: We just copy And I [02:05:00] Good chat.

[02:05:01] Ami: I lived in China, Shanghai, and she wasn’t lying. No,

[02:05:05] Margherita: yeah, yeah. I mean, and like, literally down the block we were like, heading to this other shop because, um, it was on my list. I was like, this looks like a really cool shop, I’m gonna go do some research. And on their website they had another one of our clients, this like, soup shop we’ve done work with.

[02:05:19] Margherita: Um, all their, all those photos on the website, and set it as like, a stock, like they were stocking it. And I was like And my colleagues are like, well maybe they are, and I’m like, no, they don’t export out of Canada, it’s like a Granville Island soup shop, right? And so they were, everyone was just ripping off our work, so it’s like, how about we just all be creative?

[02:05:37] Margherita: Like, we got into this to be creative, and like, let’s not copy each other, you

[02:05:41] Greg: know? Except if it’s a T logo, you can copy that.

[02:05:45] Ami: True. Um, alright, last rapid fire here, guys. Uh, one piece of advice. Your nephew is coming up in design, says, [02:06:00] How do I do this? What’s the piece of advice, the nugget of wisdom for an ambitious designer?

[02:06:07] Pamela: I guess, I think I mentioned it earlier, just like, don’t wait for the perfect project to be handed to you. You gotta create your own look. So, I mean, whether that’s like, doing, doing a job for a cause. You believe in potentially or a friend, you know, just trying to find any way or just a personal passion project, like sad bag, you know, don’t wait.

[02:06:36] Pamela: You just do it.

[02:06:37] Ami: Yeah.

[02:06:39] Greg: I would say learn to take a punch. So important. Right. Um, to, to your point, separate your personal self from your work. Even a criticism of your work has nothing to do with you as a person. You got to learn that you got to learn to be objective. Because that’s only going to make work better.

[02:06:54] Greg: And I think it’s about falling in love with the process. Because if, [02:07:00] again, you just love the end or beginning of projects, you’re not going to get far. There’s so many hours involved. It’s blood, sweat, and tears. You’ve got to love the process. You’ve got to love the minutia. And if you don’t, maybe it’s not for you.

[02:07:14] Greg: But I think that applies to anything in life. Learn to love the process and it will just become a gift.

[02:07:19] Margherita: 100%. It’s the journey, not the destination. When I was 18, I learned a pretty valuable lesson that I didn’t realize would play into my design career, but it has. I decided to take motorcycle lessons, and, um, so I signed up.

[02:07:37] Margherita: And I didn’t tell anybody I just signed up and then I came home and my at the time boyfriend and brother were on the couch And they were pissed they were like, well, what you can’t like learn how to ride a motorcycle before me And I was like then sign up and then so the three of us like these three musketeers sign up for this motorcycle lesson and we’re in a parking lot very small parking lot with pylons and everything and we’re doing the like, you know weaving [02:08:00] through pylons and I finished the weaving through the pylons and I turn and And all of a sudden, one of the instructors starts, like, yelling.

[02:08:08] Margherita: I don’t know what she was saying. She was, you know, like, blabbering to me. And so I’m looking at her, and I just ride right towards her, and then I crash the bike, right? And she looks at me, and she goes, Where you look is where you go. I was like, oh, noted. And what was interesting about this is my very empathetic brother happened to notice me, and he was looking at me, and he fell.

[02:08:30] Margherita: So here’s the deal. It works in design and it works in your life. Where you look is where you go. So get really clear about where you want that project to go, how you want it to feel. Where do you want your career to go? How do you want it to look? How do you want it to feel? Where do you want your relationships to go?

[02:08:45] Margherita: How do you want them to look? How do they want it to feel? I always talk about like, like when we don’t know what a project’s gonna look like, and the client’s like not feeling insecure, I go, if you could close your eyes, and it was all said and done, how would it feel? And they explain it and they describe [02:09:00] it to me, and I get like this, this quality from that, right?

[02:09:02] Margherita: So if you are looking around at your competition, you’re probably gonna start feeling kind of like shitty, right? And like comparing yourself and imposter syndrome and all this stuff, so then you’re not going forward, right? You’re, you’re probably gonna fall down, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna be like my brother, right?

[02:09:17] Margherita: Like empathy fall. And, or like me, just like, And like, you know, I shouldn’t have been listening to that instructor. I should’ve just been going straight. So, it works in your career and it works in every single project. It’s a macro micro lesson. Where you look is where you go.

[02:09:31] Ami: What a, what a great place to leave it.

[02:09:32] Ami: Um, it reminds me of something I read recently. Like, clear on your destination but your happiness is not dependent on that destination becoming true. Right? Same thing you’re saying. I love it. Round of applause for our panelists.

[02:09:50] Ami: I have. Hidden all of their contact information behind their heads, but I’ll get it to you. Um, I want to tell you [02:10:00] a little bit about, uh, what’s coming up next for Creative Pulse. But before we do, we end all of our events the same way, which is a question to you. Um, I wanna know So, how you’re gonna take action, I wonder if Chris you could help out with the mic here.

[02:10:16] Ami: You come to these events, and one of the differences between like, watching something on YouTube while you’re eating breakfast, you know, before you even get dressed, and actually like, showing up here, paying attention, taking notes, like, is that you can actually implement this in your life, right? And, and the cool thing about a panel, like I said, it’s only the second one we’ve, we’ve organized in Creative Pulse, is because it’s like, organizing three events.

[02:10:38] Ami: You’ve just taken in three, Really, really senior level people’s, um, you know, operating system. So I would love two volunteers just to share, like, how do you think you’ll be able to take one nugget, big or small, and actually apply it in your life? Yeah. Phil.[02:11:00] 

[02:11:03] Attendee 1: Hi, my name is Phil. Excuse me. I had a Coke. Okay. Um, so the thing I’m going to, what I picked up, I can’t remember who it was from. Research. Research your client. Research what they want, uh, research what they do. Do as much research as you can, and then put your pitch together. So normally, when I go, when I go with a client, um, either they come to me, or if I’m searching for them, it’s just by referral.

[02:11:28] Attendee 1: But to target a certain client, or to look for a certain client, uh, I think it takes a lot of work to do it, and to not just go for the money, but actually service them. And you’ll get something out of it. So I’m kind of thinking, do my research on the client, what they’ve done in the past, what I think they would like in the future, and put something together, and then pitch.

[02:11:50] Attendee 1: So, that’s my deal.

[02:11:52] Ami: Cool. That’s like a blend of two things, right? It’s a, it’s a bit of a, like, understanding the why that you would actually chase somebody, and also combining it with an [02:12:00] intense research. Very cool. One more example I’d love right over here. My

[02:12:05] Attendee 2: name is Soumya, and I’m a graphic designer. I gave a talk a couple of weeks ago at Ladies Wine and Design.

[02:12:16] Attendee 2: For me, to answer your question, how these events helped me, Uh, I’m a creative who moved from India. I had to restart my design journey all over again in Vancouver. And currently I have a remote job. So, uh, these kind of events give me access to what a future career could look like. Give me access to expertise.

[02:12:38] Attendee 2: And also open doors for someone who’s an immigrant and a woman of color to meet people beyond my usual circles and learn from you guys. So, yeah, that’s about it.

[02:12:50] Ami: I love that, and thank you for coming here. You’re so welcome. What is one thing, a nugget, from one of our panelists that you could apply in your situation?

[02:12:58] Attendee 2: Two, actually, I’ll tell you [02:13:00] two actually. One of them was what’s in the way is the way. That’s something that Pamela discussed last time too and I’ve now forgotten it. And the last one, The Way You Ended, Margarita, was Because I’m taking driving lessons, I’m learning how to drive. And that’s how, that really resonated with me.

[02:13:16] Attendee 2: Where you look, you go. And sometimes it’s very easy to lose, uh, the path because we are looking at multiple things. How to survive, how to and that was a very powerful way to end the session, so for that.

[02:13:31] Ami: Beautiful. Round of applause for the people who shared. The rest of you are off the hook, but I hope you think about this.